Saw it coming

[Tom Bennet]

Kunle,

I'll check it out! Thanks for the info. I didn't know such a thing was
currently being written.

On the other hand, it should also be noted, that I use jEdit on Solaris,
Linux and Windows. Beats the heck out of vi or emacs. Won't be able to
do that with .Net for a bit yet

Tom

"Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>It is noticeably slower than comparable .NET alternatives e.g. SharpDevelop.
>I agree it is a very good low-fi IDE. Better at this stage than SharpDevelop
>certainly.
>
>Kunle
>
>
>
>

[Kunle Odutola]

"Tom Bennet" <fdfds@fdfds.com> wrote in message
news:3cbb12cf$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> Kunle,
>
> I'll check it out! Thanks for the info. I didn't know such a thing was
> currently being written.
>
> On the other hand, it should also be noted, that I use jEdit on Solaris,
> Linux and Windows. Beats the heck out of vi or emacs. Won't be able to
> do that with .Net for a bit yet

A few guys on the DOTNET list recommended jEdit strongly if memory serves
Tom. I would advise using it until SharpDevelop....develops....some more.

As for Solaris support for .NET apps that could take a while. Mono is all
ready their in some form if memory serves. A port of SWT to Mono/Rotor would
be trivial and easier to maintain if anyone cared to do it... ;-)

Kunle

[Isle of the Dead]

"Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
message news:3cbb1919@10.1.10.29...
>
> So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++, VB, JScript
> and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
> It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
> Stored procedure debugging?
> A robust, flexible and scriptable extendibility model?
> An integrated help system like VS.NET (I actually like the "dynamic help"
> window/feature)?
> Data Explorer/Data Connections-type functionality?


WSAD now has C++ plugins, supports Java, XML
and it's probably far more extensible than .Net.... about
the only thing lacking on your list there is "stored procedure
debugging"...

although that's probably doable as a plugin.

[Kunle Odutola]

"Isle of the Dead" <isleofthedead@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3cbb88c2@10.1.10.29...
> "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote
in
> message news:3cbb1919@10.1.10.29...
> >
> > So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++, VB,
JScript
> > and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
> > It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
> > Stored procedure debugging?
> > A robust, flexible and scriptable extendibility model?
> > An integrated help system like VS.NET (I actually like the "dynamic
help"
> > window/feature)?
> > Data Explorer/Data Connections-type functionality?
>
>
> WSAD now has C++ plugins

still under-development. planned support doesn't go nearly as far as VS.NET
yet, it goes beyond in certain areas.
am i repeating myself yet?

> supports Java,

naturally.

> XML

not comparable to VS.NET support.

> and it's probably far more extensible than .Net

yeah, it _probably_ serves as a better word processor than Word/WordPro too.
and it is _probably_ a better RDBMS than Oracle.... <*chuckle*>

> .... about
> the only thing lacking on your list there is "stored procedure
> debugging"...
>
> although that's probably doable as a plugin.

Doable?. Probably but, VS.NET already has it.
And a lot more besides.

Can we kill this thread, I can see it going nowhere really.

Kunle

[Kunle Odutola]

"Isle of the Dead" <isleofthedead@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3cbb88c2@10.1.10.29...
> "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote
in
> message news:3cbb1919@10.1.10.29...
> >
> > So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++, VB,
JScript
> > and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
> > It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
> > Stored procedure debugging?
> > A robust, flexible and scriptable extendibility model?
> > An integrated help system like VS.NET (I actually like the "dynamic
help"
> > window/feature)?
> > Data Explorer/Data Connections-type functionality?
>
>
> WSAD now has C++ plugins, supports Java, XML
> and it's probably far more extensible than .Net.... about
> the only thing lacking on your list there is "stored procedure
> debugging"...
>
> although that's probably doable as a plugin.

The point is that VS.NET has _all_ of those already. Any comparison of
perfomance must take into account what the product do. Not just the
development tools used to produce the products.

Kunle

[Mark]

"Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"MarKN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbae489$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> Ok, I'm using WSAD too and it is just as fast. And WSAD does as much
if
>not
>> more than VS.Net.
>
>So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++,
Yes(maybe not managed).

> VB, JScript
>and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
It could. No one has done it yet. I can edit scripts. I could use any
script editor inside of WSAD for any script type. I haven't tried but it
might even open up VS.Net for editing C# programs. I shall try it!

>It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
Yes, via plugin (Open source version of WebForms) and what use to be Websphere
Studio.

>Stored procedure debugging?
Don't do stored procs - bad design decision. It could and I think it does.
VAJ did.

>A robust, flexible and scriptable extendibility model?
YES! XDE was developed using it.

>An integrated help system like VS.NET (I actually like the "dynamic help"
>window/feature)?
I think. It does more in the way of context help than VS.Net. VAJ had it
so no reason WSAD won't.



>Data Explorer/Data Connections-type functionality?
Yes.

> .......
> .......
>
>
>Mark, please compare apples to apples.
>
>> No, VS.Net isn't doing anything more. Eclipse/WSAD is written in Java
so
>> it should be slower no matter what.
>
>What an application is doing [or not doing] has a major impact on it's
>performance Mark. If WSAD is re-written in C/C++, would you expect it's
>performance to be better or worse?. Why?

True. And since 'Java is so slow' because it 'is not native' or 'not compiled'
it just shouldn't be as fast as VS.Net

Not sure it would be any faster in C/C++.


So in C# or VS.Net can you debug and continue? Can you tell what Exceptions
to catch with out looking at the Docs? Can you get a pop-up list of all
classes without knowing what assembly/namespace they are in?

>
>Thought so, like I said, VS.NET != WSAD, whatever else you may claim. ;-)
>[You _did_ say better right?. If not, re-read the rationale for developing
>JFace/SWT again.....]

Never said Swing or Java was perfect. Just being a voice against the FUD
that Java and Swing stinks. I (and you) think VS.Net could be improved.
Does that mean it stinks? No.

>
>> BTW, the base Eclipse product does things VS.Net doesn't. And it is free!
>
>Of course. They have a set of common features as well as unique features.
>VS.NET just has more unique features. It still manages to miss many that
I
>like though.... :-(
>
>> Don't get me wrong, everyone. VS.Net is a good product. I just don't
>think
>> it is that much, if any, better than WSAD.
>

>To each, their own Mark.

I can't disagree with that Kunle and I have no problem with that. I do have
a problem with people saying that there are no good Java IDEs, that .Net
beats Java hands down and etc.

[MarkN]

"Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Isle of the Dead" <isleofthedead@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:3cbb88c2@10.1.10.29...
>> "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote
>in
>> message news:3cbb1919@10.1.10.29...
>> >
>> > So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++, VB,
>JScript
>> > and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
>> > It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
>> > Stored procedure debugging?
>> > A robust, flexible and scriptable extendibility model?
>> > An integrated help system like VS.NET (I actually like the "dynamic
>help"
>> > window/feature)?
>> > Data Explorer/Data Connections-type functionality?
>>
>>
>> WSAD now has C++ plugins, supports Java, XML
>> and it's probably far more extensible than .Net.... about
>> the only thing lacking on your list there is "stored procedure
>> debugging"...
>>
>> although that's probably doable as a plugin.
>
>The point is that VS.NET has _all_ of those already. Any comparison of
>perfomance must take into account what the product do. Not just the
>development tools used to produce the products.
>

And what you care for it to do (like why buy a 4x4 if one lives in a warm
climate and will never take it off road).

There will never be a fair comparison because they will never do the same
things and weren't meant to do the same things. As much as Java and .Net
are similar they still are idealogically different. There are things I do
and would like to do in Java that I can't or easily can't in one of the .Net
languages (i.e. AOP, Jini) Some things I will have to resort to .Net for
(i.e. Window's services).

Mark

[Kunle Odutola]

"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cbc1149$1@10.1.10.29...

> >The point is that VS.NET has _all_ of those already. Any comparison of
> >perfomance must take into account what the product do. Not just the
> >development tools used to produce the products.
> >
>
> And what you care for it to do (like why buy a 4x4 if one lives in a warm
> climate and will never take it off road).
>
> There will never be a fair comparison because they will never do the same
> things and weren't meant to do the same things.

I disagree. Both are extendible integrated development tools. I can do Java
and C++ development in both for instance....

> As much as Java and .Net
> are similar they still are idealogically different. There are things I do
> and would like to do in Java that I can't or easily can't in one of the
..Net
> languages (i.e. AOP, Jini) Some things I will have to resort to .Net for
> (i.e. Window's services).

True. Incidentally AOP support is already present in .NET using Attributes
but, elegant, declarative solutions are yet to emerge.

Kunle

[Rob Teixeira]

"Mark" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>It could. No one has done it yet.

And that sums up the features you are saying doesn't exist in VS.NET as well.

The add-in model is exceedingly complete, and add-ins can be created in any
CLI-compliant language (and actually, any language that supports COM too).

-Rob

[Kunle Odutola]

"Mark" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbc0db0$1@10.1.10.29...

> >> Ok, I'm using WSAD too and it is just as fast. And WSAD does as much
> if
> >not
> >> more than VS.Net.
> >
> >So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++,
> Yes(maybe not managed).

One feature unique to VS.NET.

> > VB, JScript
> >and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
> It could.

Another unique VS.NET feature.

> I haven't tried but it
> might even open up VS.Net for editing C# programs. I shall try it!

I can use any text editor for editing C#, Java, C/C++ etc programs. I expect
rather more from an IDE.

> >It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
> Yes, via plugin (Open source version of WebForms) and what use to be
Websphere
> Studio.

I said "built-in" but I concede on this feature.

> >Stored procedure debugging?
> Don't do stored procs - bad design decision. It could and I think it
does.
> VAJ did.

Another unique VS.NET feature.

> >What an application is doing [or not doing] has a major impact on it's
> >performance Mark. If WSAD is re-written in C/C++, would you expect it's
> >performance to be better or worse?. Why?
>
> True. And since 'Java is so slow' because it 'is not native' or 'not
compiled'
> it just shouldn't be as fast as VS.Net

VS.NET would be faster than a Java version of VS.NET. JFace/SWT or not.

> Not sure it would be any faster in C/C++.

It would be. Perhaps a bit more research on what tool was used to develop
Java itself?

> So in C# or VS.Net can you debug and continue? Can you tell what
Exceptions
> to catch with out looking at the Docs?

You mean checked exceptions only right ;-)
Otherwise I can whip a little utility to look in the IL just as any other
IDE would have to do for unchecked exceptions in Java.

> Can you get a pop-up list of all
> classes without knowing what assembly/namespace they are in?

No. Can you do this without specifying classpath(s)?.

> >Thought so, like I said, VS.NET != WSAD, whatever else you may claim. ;-)
> >[You _did_ say better right?. If not, re-read the rationale for
developing
> >JFace/SWT again.....]
>
> Never said Swing or Java was perfect. Just being a voice against the FUD
> that Java and Swing stinks. I (and you) think VS.Net could be improved.
> Does that mean it stinks? No.

Swing stinks. That's why you have SWT.
Java isn't perfect. And .NET plugs some of it's holes and covers new
territory that Java is already following. Of course it isn't perfect either.

> >To each, their own Mark.
>
> I can't disagree with that Kunle and I have no problem with that. I do
have
> a problem with people saying that there are no good Java IDEs, that .Net
> beats Java hands down and etc.

We have been here before. VS.NET is cool and could do more.....I wish it had
full J2SE suppor though ;-)

As for the platforms, Java remaining trump cards are cross-browser support
and, cross-OS availability.

Kunle

[Rob Teixeira]

"Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>True. Incidentally AOP support is already present in .NET using Attributes
>but, elegant, declarative solutions are yet to emerge.
>
>Kunle

Attributes are incredibly powerful. I almost dismissed them when I first
saw them, but after writing my last VSM article on the topic, i started seeing
just what you could do with them. Using attributes for AOP is just the tip
of the iceburg.

A few declarative solutions are already in place - serialization and security.
In fact, i'm in the process of writing a completely custom security module
for the web apps my current client is using. Although it is custom, it does
work identically to the built-in security (uses the same interfaces etc)
and also supports declarative role and access checks.

-Rob

[Kunle Odutola]

"MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbcd278$1@10.1.10.29...

> >True. Incidentally AOP support is already present in .NET using
Attributes
> >but, elegant, declarative solutions are yet to emerge.
> >
>
> Got a link? I'm interested in comparing it to AspectJ and HyperJ.

For Attributes, just browse/search the VS.NET or .NET help system. For
someone - John Lam - working on declarative AOP (a la AspectJ) in .NET see:
http://www.iunknown.com/Weblog/fog0000000093.html

http://www.iunknown.com/AOP/fog0000000115.html

Kunle

PS Actually John's site has some very cool stuff regardless.

[MarkN]

"Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cbc1149$1@10.1.10.29...
>
>> >The point is that VS.NET has _all_ of those already. Any comparison of
>> >perfomance must take into account what the product do. Not just the
>> >development tools used to produce the products.
>> >
>>
>> And what you care for it to do (like why buy a 4x4 if one lives in a warm
>> climate and will never take it off road).
>>
>> There will never be a fair comparison because they will never do the same
>> things and weren't meant to do the same things.
>
>I disagree. Both are extendible integrated development tools. I can do Java
>and C++ development in both for instance....

Thats not really what I meant. That's typically of how people compare the
tools. It seems the typical MS tool user (You and Rob aren't typical) will
create a database application using SQL Server with Store Procs. Those using
Java have more of a tendancy to attempt to be vendor neutral and use tools
like JMS and things like reflection.


>
>> As much as Java and .Net
>> are similar they still are idealogically different. There are things
I do
>> and would like to do in Java that I can't or easily can't in one of the
>..Net
>> languages (i.e. AOP, Jini) Some things I will have to resort to .Net
for
>> (i.e. Window's services).
>
>True. Incidentally AOP support is already present in .NET using Attributes
>but, elegant, declarative solutions are yet to emerge.
>

Got a link? I'm interested in comparing it to AspectJ and HyperJ.

Mark

[Mark]

>We have been here before. VS.NET is cool and could do more.....I wish it
had
>full J2SE suppor though ;-)

Why? If VS.Net and .Net are so much better? And since everyone is using
Windows there is just no need to do anything else.

BTW, I've given up on this thread. We won't see eye-to-eye. (Same reason
I don't argue[discuss] with my wife)

[Kunle Odutola]

"Mark" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbd586a$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> >We have been here before. VS.NET is cool and could do more.....I wish it
> had
> >full J2SE suppor though ;-)
>
> Why? If VS.Net and .Net are so much better? And since everyone is using
> Windows there is just no need to do anything else.

As a general-purpose storage device, magnetic disks are so much better than
magnetic tapes. Random acess to any data on the disk in seconds pretty much
guarantees that. Yet magnetic tapes are undisputed kings of the
multi-billion $ data backup industry.

A use for every tool. And every tool has it's use.

I use J2SE/J2EE where .NET isn't appropriate - usually due to a client's OS
environment or cross-OS requirement. I wanted VS.NET to support Java because
it is [currently] a more productive tool for my needs overall.

> BTW, I've given up on this thread. We won't see eye-to-eye. (Same reason
> I don't argue[discuss] with my wife)

We do. We just don't share the same eye(s).

Kunle