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Thread: Real Programmers

  1. #46
    blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    ><*yawn*> to the blob-wannabe.

    How do you know he's a wannabe? We're kind of like the Teletubbies, we're
    annoying as **** but we won't go away. By the way I'm Tinky-Winky. PWilmarth
    is Laa-Laa. Mike Mitchell is Dipsey and Mr. Webber is Po.

    >You shoot yoursef in the foot. The bullet has automatically ricochet control
    >to ensure that you don't shoot anyone else accidentally.

    Does it ricochet off of your foot? Am I a lame duck now? Can I program
    with a wounded foot? Does everyone else know that I am wounded?

    >Your foot
    >automatically receives emergency medical assistance. As long as you aren't
    >ridiculously overweight[1*], all is well.

    According to what standards. I was told by my doctor that I am extremely
    overweight at 6'4" and 255. Screw them.

    >
    >VB.NET is about the same I would imagine. Unless it wouldn't let you play
    >russian roulette with your sea-loving friends.

    It would just take a little longer to admit you've been shot.

  2. #47
    Michael Culley Guest

    Re: Real Programmers

    > Not to be accused of being a "blob wannabe", although 10% may not be
    significant
    > to you, it may be significant to someone else---like the user. Maybe the
    > reason blob makes $108,000 per annum is because he understands this

    isssue
    > better than you do.


    I make more than the blob :-)

    > 10% slower, means 10% more time waiting for your software to show up on my
    > desktop. If I work in a high-volume call-center, that can mean a 10%

    reduction
    > in my ability to handle calls . . . even if I'm using the fastest hardware
    > available. If my business depends on how well I can process customer

    service
    > issues, then 10% is significant.


    I don't deny these situations exist but they will be very rare indeed.
    Really, what are the chances that the very latest hardware is just a little
    slower than what you need. You and your mate blob would have been saying the
    same thing when p400s where the fastest you could get. How come we have gone
    from p400s to p3000s but that extra 10% is still vital?

    --
    Michael Culley



  3. #48
    Blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    >I make more than the blob :-)

    Sure you do. In the words of Dr. Evil, "Riiiiight".

    >> 10% slower, means 10% more time waiting for your software to show up on

    my
    >> desktop. If I work in a high-volume call-center, that can mean a 10%

    >reduction
    >> in my ability to handle calls . . . even if I'm using the fastest hardware
    >> available. If my business depends on how well I can process customer

    >service
    >> issues, then 10% is significant.

    >
    >I don't deny these situations exist but they will be very rare indeed.
    >Really, what are the chances that the very latest hardware is just a little
    >slower than what you need.

    First things first, these situations are hardly rare. I don't know where
    you work or what you do but we are constantly bombarded with performance
    issues. And I mean constantly.


    So, I am going to be nice here. What are you talking about? You were talking
    about code performing at 10% less optimal than that of C. The code written
    is hardware irrelative. I was assuming that the tests you claimed to have
    ran in VB vs C were done on the same(or similar) hardware. Now, that having
    been said, I believe PWilmarth is saying that when apps that rely(I should
    say depend) on speed(irregardless what is the hardware of the day) to make
    them perform to a users expectations, a 10% loss is extreme. That 10% when
    done on a single(not that anyone would ever have this happen) user basis
    is compounded drastically when in the case of the apps I work on rely on
    the ability to have 10000 concurrent users. 10% IS VERY,VERY,VERY(I'll stop
    here) DRASTIC!!!!

    If however you are saying throw newer hardware at the problem, well your
    10% still exists whether you choose to believe it or not. That 10% will
    rear its ugly head someday when you add that extra 10 - 20%(these are not
    random number either) user load. Unless of course you are writing apps that
    don't have to be dynamic in this fashion. I would assume that since you
    like to throw hardware around fixing your performance problems, your boss
    can just reach his hand out the window and grab a few thousand dollar bills
    of the money tree outside his window???

    You and your mate blob would have been saying the
    >same thing when p400s where the fastest you could get. How come we have

    gone
    >from p400s to p3000s but that extra 10% is still vital?

    See above. 10% again is 10%. If you are building web sites, call center
    apps or just apps that rely on a varying number of users, don't you see that
    10% is a big hit? I don't know about you, but when people that work for
    me come to me and say that can't figure out why things aren't performing
    as expected and they want to add new hardware to fix it, I ask them if they
    can afford to have that $$$ removed from their check if someone else finds
    the problem. It is much cheaper to have your code perform at close to optimum
    than to have your code perform at a 10% degredation and add new hardware
    to compensate for that.


    This is the main reason that I am currently doing brown bag sessions on CLI.doc.
    It is now mandatory for "all" developers here to read and understand CLI.doc
    and how to read manifests and use ILDASM. This will prevent (you just knew
    I had to be a jerk somewhere along the line) pinheads like you from slipping
    through our cracks. When someone comes to me and says that code doesn't
    perform, we sit down with ILDASM on the suspect code and order out for pizza
    because we know it's going to be a long night.

  4. #49
    Blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    Mr. Culley,

    One more thing on this performance topic. In my spare time, when not hassling
    this newsgroup, I am a private pilot. I flew into Chicago O'Hare this weekend
    and a light went off. I was thinking about this 10% issue. Well, I started
    to have a buddy of mine count the number of times O'Hare Approach was contacted
    from the time we hit the outer boundary of their class B airspace till the
    time we landed. Keep in mind this was about 2:30 pm on a Saturday afternoon.
    It took us 25 minutes to get on the ground and in that time they fielded
    an unbelievable 250 calls(or about 10 per minute, one every 6 seconds).
    Now when you contact O'Hare approach(or any large class B airport in the
    USA) you need to be concise but brief. Now, it takes appoximately 2 seconds
    to make an initial call to the tower(if done correctly). Now let's add 10%
    on for the idiot who like to throw in "over and out". Just assume that is
    10% of the call time. After figuring out how much time it took to actually
    make the screwed up call in, well only 250 seconds more. Hmmm, not much.
    But, when I spoke to my ATC buddy, he said I didn't calculate right. I
    have to add on 5% more for the time it took ATC to react and wait, other
    pilots in the pattern waiting, ground control, etc. Anyway, we won't dwell
    on that. But, it's approx 4 minutes(or about 10 minutes every hour) time
    that is eaten up that ATC can't contact other aircraft. In that time other
    aircraft like my Cessna 172 Skyhawk may have a bead on it by the 737 on final
    that I didn't hear was number one for landing.

    10% not an issue here? Well think about those kooky CB radio operators that
    became pilots(we'll call those the VB pilots) and are eating up our air time
    and how much they are degrading the performance of ATC with their extra 10%.
    Hmmm. 10% means a lot.

    Sorry about being so long winded.

  5. #50
    Slick Willy Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    So you're the moron keeping Becker on TV? You're probably the guy who told
    CBS another Bill Cosby show would be a great success.

    Only a blithering idiot would post his earnings here. You're a total fraud!
    Surely there is someone out there who knows your real name? If not you
    must not have a friend in the world which explains a lot. You want these
    people to know your income?

    Go back to jerking off to national geographics and leave the poor vb people
    to their misery. They have so little in life to look forward to and really
    don't need you as a constant reminder of their pain.

    If you're such a great developer tell us your name and where you work, so
    we can all be inspired by your accompishments.

    "Blob" <blob@blobbloblboblo.com> wrote:
    >
    >>I guess since the software engineer career

    >First things first, it's Senior Software Architect of IOS(that's Integrated
    >Open Systems). And you are trying to claim that you are a software engineer,
    >please stop, I've had enough laughs for one day.
    >
    >>isn't panning out for you,

    >Actually, it's panning out quite well(to the tune of $108,500/year) thanks.
    >
    >
    >you
    >>should switch to becoming a writer on TVs will and Grace or maybe Becker...
    >>those shows seem to be about your speed.

    >Do you have a problem with these shows? I personally can't stand Will and
    >Grace(the little gay guy has got to go, but Grace is hot - I love red heads)
    >but Becker is pretty funny. I've always followed Ted Danson since Cheers.
    >
    >>You're a legend in your own mind.

    >Aren't we all?



  6. #51
    blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    >So you're the moron keeping Becker on TV? You're probably the guy who told
    >CBS another Bill Cosby show would be a great success.

    You have got to be kidding me. You have nothing else to say?

    >
    >Only a blithering idiot would post his earnings here. You're a total fraud!


    Jealous?

    > Surely there is someone out there who knows your real name?

    Yeah, me, Brian, Craig, John, Peter, Quintus, these names should ring a bell
    to someone.

    If not you
    >must not have a friend in the world which explains a lot. You want these
    >people to know your income?

    Point?

    >Go back to jerking off to national geographics

    As you can tell I have access to the internet and all its porn. Why would
    I use NG? I am a true Jenna Jamison fan so I spend most of my time on her
    site.


    >and leave the poor vb people
    >to their misery. They have so little in life to look forward to and really
    >don't need you as a constant reminder of their pain.

    I just like to throw daggers.


    >If you're such a great developer tell us your name and where you work, so
    >we can all be inspired by your accompishments.

    Yeah, OK, "Slick Willy". I am assuming you now have an office in Harlem
    and used to be president of the good ole US? I'll make a deal with you,
    give me your name, address, phone number so I can come over and you'll see
    who I am in person. The I'll beat the living **** out of with a pair of
    vice grips and then we'll see what you have to say.

    Have a great day!


  7. #52
    PWilmarth Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    Blob:

    You made my point exactly. Some systems can tolerate a 10% difference, for
    others, its simply unacceptable.


    "Blob" <blob@blobbloblboblo.com> wrote:>So, I am going to be nice here.
    >What are you talking about? You were talking about code performing at >10%

    less optimal than that of C. The code written is hardware >irrelative.
    I was assuming that the tests you claimed to have
    >ran in VB vs C were done on the same(or similar) hardware. Now, that >having

    been said, I believe PWilmarth is saying that when apps that rely(I should
    >say depend) on speed(irregardless what is the hardware of the day) to make
    >them perform to a users expectations, a 10% loss is extreme. That 10% when
    >done on a single(not that anyone would ever have this happen) user basis
    >is compounded drastically when in the case of the apps I work on rely on
    >the ability to have 10000 concurrent users. 10% IS VERY,VERY,VERY(I'll

    stop
    >here) DRASTIC!!!!
    >
    >If however you are saying throw newer hardware at the problem, well your
    >10% still exists whether you choose to believe it or not. That 10% will
    >rear its ugly head someday when you add that extra 10 - 20%(these are not
    >random number either) user load. Unless of course you are writing apps

    that
    >don't have to be dynamic in this fashion. I would assume that since you
    >like to throw hardware around fixing your performance problems, your boss
    >can just reach his hand out the window and grab a few thousand dollar bills
    >of the money tree outside his window???
    >
    >You and your mate blob would have been saying the
    >>same thing when p400s where the fastest you could get. How come we have

    >gone
    >>from p400s to p3000s but that extra 10% is still vital?

    >See above. 10% again is 10%. If you are building web sites, call center
    >apps or just apps that rely on a varying number of users, don't you see

    that
    >10% is a big hit? I don't know about you, but when people that work for
    >me come to me and say that can't figure out why things aren't performing
    >as expected and they want to add new hardware to fix it, I ask them if they
    >can afford to have that $$$ removed from their check if someone else finds
    >the problem. It is much cheaper to have your code perform at close to optimum
    >than to have your code perform at a 10% degredation and add new hardware
    >to compensate for that.
    >
    >
    >This is the main reason that I am currently doing brown bag sessions on

    CLI.doc.
    > It is now mandatory for "all" developers here to read and understand CLI.doc
    >and how to read manifests and use ILDASM. This will prevent (you just knew
    >I had to be a jerk somewhere along the line) pinheads like you from slipping
    >through our cracks. When someone comes to me and says that code doesn't
    >perform, we sit down with ILDASM on the suspect code and order out for pizza
    >because we know it's going to be a long night.



  8. #53
    Blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers


    "Blob" <blob@blobbloblboblo.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Constance J. Petersen" <constance@smartisans.com> wrote:
    >>Hi Blob,
    >>
    >>"blob" <blob@blobblobblob.com> wrote in message
    >>news:3df0e5bd$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >>> Man, you guys sure are testy. Can't take a joke?

    >>
    >>Interesting that your "jokes" are generally at the expense of others in

    >this
    >>newsgroup.

    >
    >Now just a minute. I have been called moron, a**hole, jerk, loser, pretty
    >much every name in the book. What, because I state the obvious it's at

    the
    >expense of others? You should get off the high horse there.
    >
    >It was a joke. Are you saying VB isn't slow? Are you saying VB doesn't
    >look all pretty up front? Please, every statement I made in this thread
    >was true. Again, get off the high horse.
    >
    >
    >
    >If you want to be honest, you could try rephrasing that as "Can't
    >>take a put down?"

    >Put down to whom? There was not a single word about any one individual.
    > Matter of fact it was directed at the language itself.
    >
    >>
    >>Build a great Web site: http://www.smartisans.com/

    >Coincidentally, your services defined on your web site are nothing a high
    >school kid knowing ASP and VB couldn't do, for much cheaper I might add.
    >Now that was a putdown and not a joke.


    And I might add, some spectacular use of FrontPage and Adobe GoLive. Wow
    that's some spectacular stuff. Like I said we have high school kids doing
    that crap by hand. If that's how you make a buck ripping off people, man
    if they only knew the truth of what you were doing and how anyone can do
    it. Now that was a putdown.

  9. #54
    Blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers

    NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
    Message-ID: <3df8137a$1@tnews.web.devx.com>
    Date: 11 Dec 2002 20:41:30 -0800
    X-Trace: 11 Dec 2002 20:41:30 -0800, 127.0.0.1
    Lines: 16
    Path: tnews.web.devx.com
    Xref: dnews vb.dotnet.discussion:48284


    "Michael Culley" <mculley@NOSPAMoptushome.com.au> wrote:
    >> "offense" was not taken at all nor has ever
    >> been.

    >
    >Really? So when you have not taken offense you tell people to shut up and
    >call them an idiot. Knock, knock, anyone home? Thought not.
    >


    Wow that was fast. Are you just waiting for me??? Man, I have gone out
    deer hunting, had about 10 beers, drove home, nailed the wife, and then sat
    down at the computer and you are already here? Jesus dude, get a life.


    Anyway, on your comment, what the **** is that? That is some rubbish. I
    have no clue what you are trying to say. And I have had the beers tonight???

  10. #55
    Blob Guest

    Re: Real Programmers

    NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
    Message-ID: <3df81544$1@tnews.web.devx.com>
    Date: 11 Dec 2002 20:49:08 -0800
    X-Trace: 11 Dec 2002 20:49:08 -0800, 127.0.0.1
    Lines: 10
    Path: tnews.web.devx.com
    Xref: dnews vb.dotnet.discussion:48286


    "Michael Culley" <mculley@NOSPAMoptushome.com.au> wrote:
    >Um, no I was not. I was saying that your behaviour was similar to that of

    a
    >racist, I was not saying you were a racist.

    What, throw in the "similar" keyword(not capitalized for you VB guys) and
    you think that is not calling me a racist? What, hearing I was a 6' 4" black
    man change yo mind, dog? yo, why not slide over and show me da digits?
    Yo, *****, skee me and show me what you got on da uder side. Thought not,
    you... well I'll end it there, nice try, you racist dipshit.

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