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Thread: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

  1. #616
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Mike,

    Makes sense to me!

    Kent

    Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:17:46 -0800, "David Rothgery"
    ><drothgery@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
    >
    >>It's more that
    >>- VB6 lacked certain basic features necessary to the .NET framework (single
    >>inheritence, exception handling, etc.), so the language had to be changed,

    >
    >Yeah? So obviously Microsoft went completely the wrong way about it!
    >
    >Consider what they could have done.
    >
    >1. Concentrate on their Java killer, .Net, and get it to market pronto
    >with the one language C#.
    >
    >2. Announce at the launch of .Net that their exciting new platform and
    >development system for nifty web services - the thing of the future
    >(okay, so I wear a different hat occasionally, so shoot me) - would
    >include C# out of the box and that they were working on introducing
    >other languages on an ongoing basis.
    >
    >3. While .Net was bedding down amongst the C# community, produce one
    >or more interim versions of VB6, e.g. 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, with each version
    >steadily moving more towards the .Net paradigm internally (outwardly
    >maintaining full compatibility with previous classic VB versions as
    >per usual).
    >
    >4. After, say, two years, by which time the new .Net would have been
    >seen to succeed and may by now have enjoyed wide acceptance, they
    >could have announced VB.Net with as near as dammit full compatibility
    >with VB7.5. Result? VB programmers would have not seen anything like
    >such an insurmountable problem in moving over to .Net, because they
    >would have largely seen the migration as just more of the same kind of
    >upgrade that they had entertained since VB1.
    >
    >MM


  2. #617
    james Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Keep repeating that each time you go to your self help group Mike.
    james

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    > reasons. And let's face it, VB.Net appears to be very much a backwater
    > nowadays. People only ever seem to be talking about Java (or
    > Websphere).
    >
    > MM




  3. #618
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:27:21 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >Keep repeating that each time you go to your self help group Mike.


    Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    itself, let alone VB.Net?

    MM

  4. #619
    james Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    I guess that depends on where you live. Here in the North Texas area,
    VB.NET usage is growing. A good example is the continued growth of the Fort
    Worth DOTNET User's Group. When I first attended the user's group meeting
    last September, we only had about 20 members. Last month's meeting had over
    50 people attending and the majority of them use VB.NET. ( poll taken that
    evening) And the others used a mix of VB.NET and C#.
    The majority of the members represent some of the largest businesses in the
    North Texas area. And also some major national companies.
    Everyone is excited about the potential of using VB.NET in developing
    in-house applications and ASP.NET apps. All of those companies represented
    are currently deploying and using applications developed with VB.NET.
    That number (50) is only a drop in the bucket of the number of developers
    that work at the companies they work for , that use VB.NET on a daily basis.
    So, from what I have been seeing and hearing (from other developers), VB.NET
    usage is going up more and more.
    And more of those companies are dropping the use of VB6 (other than to
    maintain old apps developed in VB6), and migrating over to VB.NET.
    You should look around where you live and see if there is a User's Group
    in your area.
    You might just find out where the BUZZ is !!
    james

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:4u2l6v0qu03uthvlhof5dpqvel82abcrek@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:27:21 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Keep repeating that each time you go to your self help group Mike.

    >
    > Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    > VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    > doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    > itself, let alone VB.Net?
    >
    > MM




  5. #620
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:44:56 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >I guess that depends on where you live. Here in the North Texas area,
    >VB.NET usage is growing. A good example is the continued growth of the Fort
    >Worth DOTNET User's Group. When I first attended the user's group meeting
    >last September, we only had about 20 members. Last month's meeting had over
    >50 people attending and the majority of them use VB.NET. ( poll taken that
    >evening) And the others used a mix of VB.NET and C#.
    >The majority of the members represent some of the largest businesses in the
    >North Texas area. And also some major national companies.
    >Everyone is excited about the potential of using VB.NET in developing
    >in-house applications and ASP.NET apps. All of those companies represented
    >are currently deploying and using applications developed with VB.NET.
    >That number (50) is only a drop in the bucket of the number of developers
    >that work at the companies they work for , that use VB.NET on a daily basis.
    >So, from what I have been seeing and hearing (from other developers), VB.NET
    >usage is going up more and more.
    >And more of those companies are dropping the use of VB6 (other than to
    >maintain old apps developed in VB6), and migrating over to VB.NET.
    > You should look around where you live and see if there is a User's Group
    >in your area.
    >You might just find out where the BUZZ is !!


    So the membership went up from 20 to 50 in six months, bravo! By the
    way, it's hardly surprising that people are dropping VB like crazy
    because they'd be crazy to use a product that has been officially
    discontinued. When I speak of "buzz" I mean the kind that emanated
    from every computer mag and much ordinary non-computing media as well,
    as VeeBee was seen to be ubiquitous, profitable, accessible and
    flexible to millions, by millions, for millions - and for millions of
    bucks to be made, too.

    Of course, it's your right to redefine the meaning of buzz, should you
    so wish. But like I said earlier, believing something doesn't make it
    true.

    MM

  6. #621
    james Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > So the membership
    went up from 20 to 50 in six months, bravo! By the
    > way, it's hardly surprising that people are dropping VB like crazy
    > because they'd be crazy to use a product that has been officially
    > discontinued. When I speak of "buzz" I mean the kind that emanated
    > from every computer mag and much ordinary non-computing media as well,
    > as VeeBee was seen to be ubiquitous, profitable, accessible and
    > flexible to millions, by millions, for millions - and for millions of
    > bucks to be made, too.
    >
    > Of course, it's your right to redefine the meaning of buzz, should you
    > so wish. But like I said earlier, believing something doesn't make it
    > true.
    >
    > MM

    Yes, the membership has grown that much in 6 months. It may not seem like a
    lot to you but, it is a sign of increasing acceptance. And as I said, those
    50 people represent a lot more programmers than just those 50 people. Not
    everyone in their respective companies can or want to be involved in a
    user's group. Not everyone in any endevor belongs to a club or user's
    group.
    I understand what you were saying about"buzz". And your right, VB.NET
    has not gotten the same coverage as VB itself did when it was first
    introduced. The main reason for that is because it is evolutionary, not
    revolutionary, like VB was when it was first introduced.
    It (VB.NET) is looked upon as just another RAD tool. Not in the same light
    as when VB was first introduced. Before VB, there wasn't anything like it
    out there. That is why there was all the "buzz". VB.NET is just another,
    improved version of VB. And once you get used to using it, you can see that
    it is just as easy to use and much more powerful than it's predecessors.
    Which is an Evolution of the Visual Basic language. Not like with Visual
    Basic, which was a Revolutionary change from Quick Basic. Just the
    addition of Drag & Drop Windows Forms design, was Revolutionary. Not to
    mention all the additional language enhancements. And there were a lot of
    things removed from the Basic Language in Visual Basic that was in Quick
    Basic, just because they were not needed or relivant to Visual Basic and the
    Windows enviroment.
    It is just a continued change to allow Visual Basic programmers the chance
    to develop applications that work well in newer versions of Windows. And
    provide their users the latest features in their applications.
    I think the next Revolutionary Programming Language will be the one that
    allows Voice activated programming. Like the Star Trek movies. Just tell
    the computer what function you want it to preform and it does it.
    Well, enough of this. Have fun Mike, and rant on!! I get a laugh out of
    your rants. Especially since they are just reruns of your early rants from
    years ago. You have just updated them to Visual Basic.NET.
    james



  7. #622
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:21:51 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >Well, enough of this. Have fun Mike, and rant on!! I get a laugh out of
    >your rants. Especially since they are just reruns of your early rants from
    >years ago. You have just updated them to Visual Basic.NET.


    Sex is just a rerun from the previous Friday, yet we still look
    forward to Fridays!

    MM

  8. #623
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    >VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    >doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    >itself, let alone VB.Net?


    Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
    VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
    dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.

    You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.


  9. #624
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Sex is just a rerun from the previous Friday, yet
    > we still look forward to Fridays!


    Mike: Don't flatter yourself: What you do here is masturbation.
    --
    Phil Weber


  10. #625
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Hi Kent,

    Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
    by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
    the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
    the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?

    /Pat
    ----------------
    Show me the XML.
    ----------------

    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >
    >Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    >>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    >>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    >>itself, let alone VB.Net?

    >
    >Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
    >VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
    >dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
    >
    >You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
    >



  11. #626
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Very easily. People are curious, it's in their nature. Industry awards are
    bought and sold all of the time. Just because someone produces a solid development
    tool does not mean it will get industry acceptance. Though .Net developers
    will clearly use VS.Net. Lets not forget there is not much comeptition in
    the area of .Net IDEs right now.

    How do you explain the lack of adoption of .Net? VB.Net in particular.
    Why are there so few opportunites for VB.Net developers. There may be plenty
    of developers interested in .Net, but developer interest alone does not create
    jobs.

    Why has there not been a mass exodous of existing enterprise solutions if
    .Net is so great? .Net has not give enterprise developers sufficent reason
    to depart from their existing toolset. Most of the developers moving to
    .Net are Microsoft developers who simply do not have a choice or a say in
    the matter.

    It seems that just about every pro .Net post you list comes from the Microsoft
    website where you would expect to find pro .Net propaganda. I've read in
    a couple trades like CRN that Microsoft is strong arming a lot of it's partners
    to get on board with .Net. I think there is a lot of desparation right now
    on the part of Microsoft and it's supporters.

    So there you have it.

    Kent

    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    >Hi Kent,
    >
    >Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
    >by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
    >the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
    >the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?
    >
    >/Pat
    >----------------
    >Show me the XML.
    >----------------
    >
    >"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >>
    >>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    >>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    >>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    >>>itself, let alone VB.Net?

    >>
    >>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
    >>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
    >>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
    >>
    >>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
    >>

    >



  12. #627
    Bob Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >
    >Very easily. People are curious, it's in their nature.

    True. I got curious when I saw the Pet Shop results.


    > Industry awards are
    >bought and sold all of the time.

    So you say all the awards are fake?

    > Just because someone produces a solid development
    >tool does not mean it will get industry acceptance. Though .Net developers
    >will clearly use VS.Net. Lets not forget there is not much comeptition

    in
    >the area of .Net IDEs right now.

    VS has never had much competition.


    >How do you explain the lack of adoption of .Net? VB.Net in particular.

    What lack of adoption. Your assertion doesn't make it true.


    >Why are there so few opportunites for VB.Net developers. There may be plenty
    >of developers interested in .Net, but developer interest alone does not

    create
    >jobs.



    >Why has there not been a mass exodous of existing enterprise solutions if
    >.Net is so great? .Net has not give enterprise developers sufficent reason
    >to depart from their existing toolset. Most of the developers moving to
    >.Net are Microsoft developers who simply do not have a choice or a say in
    >the matter.

    I think they have plenty of say, and they're moving as fast as possible.

    >It seems that just about every pro .Net post you list comes from the Microsoft
    >website where you would expect to find pro .Net propaganda. I've read in
    >a couple trades like CRN that Microsoft is strong arming a lot of it's partners
    >to get on board with .Net.

    Post the links.

    >I think there is a lot of desparation right now
    >on the part of Microsoft and it's supporters.

    Your presence here suggests that there is more desparation among Java developers.

    >So there you have it.
    >
    >Kent
    >
    >"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Hi Kent,
    >>
    >>Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
    >>by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
    >>the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
    >>the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?
    >>
    >>/Pat
    >>----------------
    >>Show me the XML.
    >>----------------
    >>
    >>"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    >>>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    >>>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    >>>>itself, let alone VB.Net?
    >>>
    >>>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
    >>>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
    >>>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
    >>>
    >>>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
    >>>

    >>

    >



  13. #628
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Hi Kent,

    I'm not sure where you live, but here in the US, the adoption of .NET is
    widespread and growing. Hundreds of companies are using it, such as mine.


    I have a have quite a few friends and family members in the industry and
    half of them have already made the switch. For example, I know one consultant
    in particular who is doing a VB.NET project for one of the largest retail
    stores in the world. I know another who's company flew her down to Florida
    just 4 days ago because the client couldn't find any experienced .NET developers
    in the area.

    When I attended the .NET launch event, it was standing room only. Not one
    single seat was available. I even know Java programmers who are desperately
    scrambling to learn .NET because they're having trouble finding jobs.

    Your statement that the buzz is only from MS websites and magazines is ridiculous.
    You should try visiting eweek.com, news.com, ZDNET.com, or computerworld.com.
    These are non-MS websites and almost every single day, at least one of them
    has some news or article about .NET. The buzz is everywhere. The next time
    you're at the news stand, go pick up the March 25th issue of PC Magazine
    and turn to article on page 74. There's yet another success story of yet
    another company adopting .NET. If you don't think .NET is taking off, I can
    only assume you don't get out much.

    /Pat
    ----------------
    Show me the XML.
    ----------------

    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >
    >How do you explain the lack of adoption of .Net?
    > VB.Net in particular.
    >Why are there so few opportunites for VB.Net developers. There may be plenty
    >of developers interested in .Net, but developer interest alone does not

    create
    >jobs.
    >
    >Why has there not been a mass exodous of existing enterprise solutions if
    >.Net is so great? .Net has not give enterprise developers sufficent reason
    >to depart from their existing toolset. Most of the developers moving to
    >.Net are Microsoft developers who simply do not have a choice or a say in
    >the matter.
    >
    >It seems that just about every pro .Net post you list comes from the Microsoft
    >website where you would expect to find pro .Net propaganda. I've read in
    >a couple trades like CRN that Microsoft is strong arming a lot of it's partners
    >to get on board with .Net. I think there is a lot of desparation right

    now
    >on the part of Microsoft and it's supporters.
    >
    >So there you have it.
    >
    >Kent
    >
    >"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Hi Kent,
    >>
    >>Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
    >>by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
    >>the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
    >>the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?
    >>
    >>/Pat
    >>----------------
    >>Show me the XML.
    >>----------------
    >>
    >>"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
    >>>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
    >>>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
    >>>>itself, let alone VB.Net?
    >>>
    >>>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
    >>>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
    >>>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
    >>>
    >>>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
    >>>

    >>

    >



  14. #629
    Jason Sobell iGadget Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    <t3tf2v043lmagbu52qq3dt1vdf3nu6ji10@4ax.com> <3e28933f@tnews.web.devx.com> <e9kj2vs6knl7trsaqufhqrdoklouuq87p9@4ax.com>
    Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:23:05 +1100
    Message-ID: <1dhh15g5mihte.adjyx7whjjh1$.dlg@40tude.net>
    User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.3.1
    NNTP-Posting-Host: c16664.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au
    X-Trace: 18 Jan 2003 18:10:02 -0800, c16664.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au
    Lines: 53
    Path: tnews.web.devx.com
    Xref: dnews vb.dotnet.discussion:48806

    On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:26:31 +0000, Mike Mitchell wrote:

    > On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:48:18 -0000, "John Butler"
    > <nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:
    >
    >>You don't see your hypocrisy?

    >
    > I refuse to accept there was any. In 1997 no VB programmers would have
    > had even a minuscule inkling of the changes which would befall them
    > within just a few years, although VB.Net was probably (Project Cool?)
    > already on the drawing board by then. We used VBXs if we wanted
    > additional, third-party controls. Suddenly, however, they were passť,
    > and were replaced with OCXs, which were themselves renamed to ActiveX.
    > At that time, within the parameters of change we were comfortable
    > with, such arbitrary and costly changes seemed tremendously
    > significant. And when I see significant changes for their own sake, I
    > write about 'em! It's what I do!


    All of us who were commercially developing at this time were inconvenienced
    by the move from VBX to OCX, but the increase in reliability and
    flexibility of our development system that this brought about made it all
    worthwhile.
    The fact that you clearly never had to develop your own VBX or OCX
    components shows that you are not qualified (and were not back when you
    commented) to make any valid judgements on this issue.
    The OCX interface allowed us to make reliable, flexible, self-documenting
    components. The VBX interface was a complete bodge, and it was almost
    impossible to develop reliable addons.
    My only complaint about the introduction of OCX was that third parties
    stopped all development (and bug fixes) on their VBX components while they
    worked on their new OCXs.

    > However, what we are now faced with is several orders of magnitude
    > more different than ever any of the changes we had thrust on us back
    > then. Who would have guessed what would await us VB programmers in
    > 2002? Who could have predicted the huge outcry (well, I did a couple
    > of years ago, but that's another story)?
    >
    > But I see that you obtain some sense of absolution for VB.Net by
    > referring to what I wrote six years ago, and since VB.Net needs all
    > the support it can get if it is to stay afloat, I'm magnanimous enough
    > to allow you to capitalise on anything else I might have written
    > before now.


    I'm not sure what this 'sense of absolution' tosh is, but I see a clear
    lack of ability to adapt when I read the same complaints from you six years
    later but with a different product name
    Perhaps you should consider a career in dry-stone-wall building,
    grave-digging, or somesuch situation that does not change over decades or
    centuries.

    Cheers,
    Jason

  15. #630
    Jason Sobell iGadget Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    <t3tf2v043lmagbu52qq3dt1vdf3nu6ji10@4ax.com> <3e28933f@tnews.web.devx.com> <e9kj2vs6knl7trsaqufhqrdoklouuq87p9@4ax.com> <1dhh15g5mihte.adjyx7whjjh1$.dlg@40tude.net> <49uk2vscoh7f5v88122j32dp1f4lqhl746@4ax.com>
    Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:03:59 +1100
    Message-ID: <s16moeisw4tf.1oix99233jtwl.dlg@40tude.net>
    User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.3.1 (66933a2c.142.352)
    NNTP-Posting-Host: c16664.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au
    X-Trace: 19 Jan 2003 04:50:55 -0800, c16664.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au
    Lines: 31
    Path: tnews.web.devx.com
    Xref: dnews vb.dotnet.discussion:48813

    Very nice

    On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:18:34 +0000, Mike Mitchell wrote:
    > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:23:05 +1100, Jason Sobell iGadget
    > <igadget_@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Perhaps you should consider a career in dry-stone-wall building,
    >>grave-digging, or somesuch situation that does not change over decades or
    >>centuries.

    >
    > Well, of course, I have a choice, but many do not. Many are being
    > forced into such allegedly mundane jobs as the IT industry implodes in
    > upon itself, since the job scene is now dire on both sides of the
    > pond. Like I said earlier this month, computing has become boring for
    > most people. The frisson has gone out of it and people are just fed up
    > with the hype, the viruses, the instability, and the cost. Computing
    > is starting to go the way of CB radio, still followed, I'm told, by
    > truckers in grease-stained T-shirts, but outside that niche hardly
    > figures at all on most people's horizons. The one thing capitalism has
    > to do to survive is to keep on selling, and if they cannot sell
    > computers or the idea of computers to the general public, they have to
    > look around for something else to sell instead. My local branch of a
    > UK-wide consumer electronics chain was again almost empty yesterday
    > (Saturday). The chain had a poor Christmas in terms of sales. But a
    > few doors down, the local camera shop was knee-deep in punters. In
    > fact, I have tried twice recently to stay in the queue long enough to
    > get some information, but had to leave because they were so busy. (Of
    > course, this begs the question why they don't employ more staff, but
    > that's another question.)
    >
    > MM


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