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Thread: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

  1. #286
    Jonathan West Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote in message news:3e307ccf$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > Now it's a third class citizen to C++ and C# I'm not sure which one they

    like
    > more. VB has become the "red headed step-child" that no one wants.


    So what's new? <g>

    --
    Regards
    Jonathan West


  2. #287
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Now it's a third class citizen to C++ and C#

    Kent: I wouldn't say that: C# has a few features that VB.NET lacks, but
    VB.NET has a few features that C# lacks. They look about even to me.
    --
    Phil Weber



  3. #288
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    That's not the point. Which one does Microsoft favor? How much of their
    own code is written in VB.Net. How much of the framework is written in C#?

    VB is getting pretty low on the food chain.

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:
    > > Now it's a third class citizen to C++ and C#

    >
    >Kent: I wouldn't say that: C# has a few features that VB.NET lacks, but
    >VB.NET has a few features that C# lacks. They look about even to me.
    >--
    >Phil Weber
    >
    >


  4. #289
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Yeah, but you'd never know it if you went to one of their big educational
    (marketing) events.

    "Jonathan West" <jwest@mvps.org> wrote:
    >
    >
    >So what's new? <g>
    >



  5. #290
    John Butler Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote in message news:3e2d91e5$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    >With .Net your moving from Windows to a different (not better)
    > way of programming on Windows. Where is the point in that? How do you

    pitch
    > it to your customers?


    That's *your* opinion. Some of us who have used it would argue it is a much
    better way of programming on Windows. I can pitch it quite easily
    actually...for starters, with the initial steep learning curve behind me, I
    can develop apps faster in .NET than I could before (I have dozens of
    pre-written class libraries available to me, whereas previously I had to
    write them myself or buy third party components) and I can (using VB.NET)
    develop apps I either couldn't or wouldn't bother approaching previously (eg
    multi-threaded server components doing heavy duty work).


    > I'm too busy to go back and read the post, so I digress. We can say we

    agree
    > that it is complicated and non trivial to port VB6 code to .Net.


    Absolutely true, if you already have a huge VB6 app. No arguments there. If
    however, you're developing new applications, the story is completely
    different.

    rgds
    John Butler





  6. #291
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Dave,

    By the way, I also do a lot of REDIMing, although I hadn't done speed tests
    on that yet. I suppose that is going to be another thorn.

    > I know there are more *evolved* approaches in
    > NET, but **** it - just have it *as* efficient as VB6 so you can get

    people
    > to migrated over to VB.NET faster.


    I think that's what we are all saying. How can I get up to speed in .net if
    I have to spend most of the time in VB6?

    Gary



  7. #292
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Larry,

    > Adding a class...


    Classes are very useful, but are very different from Gosub

    My Classes I want to be visible to the rest of the program as they are to be
    reused. I use gosub when I've got several lines of code that are internal to
    a procedure, and of no intertest outside of it.

    Often I create Gosubs when I have some procedural code that uses most of the
    procedural level variables, and then find that it needs to be repeated in a
    couple of different places in the flow of the code.

    Using a class for something like that is overkill, plus it converts a very
    simple structure (Gosub) into something much more comples (a class)

    Gary





  8. #293
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Paul,

    > Which is why it isn't a container since entry can be accomplished via a

    branch call or via the
    > sequential execution of code. That is, unless you either skip over the

    GoSub code programmatically
    > or Exit the Function or Sub prior to its execution.


    ????

    All of my Gosubs are below an Exit Sub or Function.

    How could you do it any other way?

    If you do a sequential entry into a Gosub routine you will get a Return
    without Gosub error when it hits the Return.

    Gary



  9. #294
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Larry,

    > Make a Native EXE (fast code option) out of the code below, and report
    > your findings, just to check if it matches what the rest of us see....


    Gosub 481
    Sub 70

    But if you compile in P-Code it is:

    Gosub 270
    Sub 741

    And in the environment it is:

    Gosub 360
    Sub 791

    Since P-Code is half the size of compiled code, I often use P-Code.

    Gary






  10. #295
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Phil,

    > Gary: Just a thought...
    >
    > What if you created a VB.NET method, e.g.:
    >
    > Public Sub GetEx(ByVal Handle As Integer, _
    > Optional ByVal Offset As Integer = 0, _
    > Optional ByRef Target As String = "")
    >
    > that uses the Stream classes internally? Then you could convert your
    > existing Get statements using a simple search-and-replace (using Regular
    > Expressions, replace "Get {:d}, {.*}, {.+}" with "GetEx(\1, \2, \3)"), and
    > still get nearly optimal performance.


    I'll have to check into it. The problem is that I don't have enough time to
    do all the testing required. I'm also waiting to see what happens with
    version 2. It would be a shame to do all of these patches and then find out
    that MS resolves the problem.

    Thanks,

    Gary





  11. #296
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Paul,

    > The bottom line is that you have a migration path. If the performance of

    Mid is unacceptable you can
    > change it (now or later), but for the time being you have functioning code

    in a VB.NET app. That may
    > not be exactly what you want but its preferable over the functionality

    being dropped altogether.

    The problem is that the performance of my program must at least be
    comparable to the VB6 version when I make the transition in order to please
    my clients. I can't throw a second class program on them and then tell them
    to wait till I get it up to par.

    Gary



  12. #297
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:19:09 -0600, "Larry Serflaten"
    <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote:

    >Of course, you have to be running Windows XP, or Win2000
    >to use it, and if you want DB support you have to have either
    >MSDE, Server 7 or Server 2000 (MSDE is free) installed on your
    >system, and don't forget the NetFramework, has to be installed....


    Well, there ya go....!

    MM

  13. #298
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:38:29 -0000, "Jonathan West" <jwest@mvps.org>
    wrote:

    >Paul, it's either new or it's not, but unless Microsoft has made a
    >breakthrough in quantum computing, it can't both be new and not-new at the
    >same time!


    Hang about! Isn't that an excellent definition of overloading?

    MM

  14. #299
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:48:59 -0800, "Phil Weber"
    <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:

    > > Paul, it's either new or it's not...

    >
    >Jonathan: I'm Phil. Do you have me confused with Paul?


    Hi, Paul!

    Seen Phil lately?

    MM

  15. #300
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:49:01 -0600, "Larry Serflaten"
    <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote:

    >If you haven't got time to do it right the first time, when are you going to
    >find time to do it again?


    The "first time" is just an iterative process which begins with a
    blank sheet of paper (or screen), then progresses through initial
    prototyping, correction, feedback from users, improvment, and
    delivery. But in a well-planned operation, that iterative process need
    hardly ever stop, at least when we're talking about in-house apps. If,
    say, you deliver the exe automatically, through self-loading version
    checkers etc, then the roll-out to users can often be completely
    transparent. I have even successfully implemented enhancements by that
    route by causing the new version to pop up a help screen that they
    can't easily bypass, thus forcing the users to read about the new
    stuff first, and only then continue on with what they wanted to do. Of
    course, all previous functionality is *retained* wherever possible! No
    way would we just cut off their air supply. It's called compatibility.
    In most (ca. 95%) of cases the users are thus implementing their own
    self- or distance-learning skills to adapt to the enhanced
    functionality. For those 5% who don't "get" it, then that's why there
    is a help desk.

    >It is that 'hurry up' attitude that puts buggy code into the hands of the users.
    >Of course if your users are a captive audience, like co-workiers in a firm,
    >and its that firm's managers that want the work out rapidly, then, they get
    >what they pay for. But that attitutde is wrong for the general populace!


    You just cannot say it's wrong, period! Sometimes it is, often it
    isn't. I'd venture to suggest that iterative RAD programming via
    prototyping and revision could be improved upon considerably by
    introducing far smarter IDEs than what we have currently. That is, get
    that darn computer to get up off its lazy CPU legs (all 168 of 'em, I
    ask you!) and do some work for a change! VB programmers don't know
    what luxury they enjoy by not having to worry about string variables
    "running off" the end, like typically a C string can. They don't even
    worry any longer about the slight performance penalty that Basic
    strings suffered compared with C strings, because nowadays, with the
    fast CPUs and masses of memory, it's not a problem any longer for
    business apps.

    Well, suppose there were many other of these hand-holding little
    angels of mercy one could plug into the IDE? To turn stupid code red,
    for example. Or beep the bell when one tries to open a recordset
    before having a connection. That is, the computer doesn't just look at
    the obvious syntax errors, but plans strategies for what might be
    sense, and what is almost certainly nonsense in terms of code - then
    measures the current app against those strategies. There must be all
    kinds of smarts that one could implement to make computing a far less
    dangerous place. But the onus for 100% accuracy is placed almost
    entirely on the programmer at present.

    >Where might you see that attitude working well, in any other industry?


    You can't always compare software with any other industry, since it
    really isn't like any other industry. Some things can be analogous,
    however. Building construction, for example. Buildings are constructed
    from standard materials, such as bricks, windows, doors, and put
    together by pretty ordinary building workers (no offence, gals!). It's
    only through using standard materials that many buildings today are
    affordable. However, for that fantastic, impressive flagship city
    municipal centre, public library, or museum, you might want to employ
    (and afford through public donations, say) workers and designers of a
    higher and costlier calibre, since the type of the building is
    different and in a loftier plane than the mundane bread-and-butter
    buildings of a workaday architect's normal output.

    >Should the firemen bulldoze the house down to stop a small kitchen fire?
    >It will put the fire out quicker....


    San Francisco, 1906?

    >Should the doctor stuff gauze in the knife wound and bandage the
    >patient up? It will stop the bleeding sooner....


    In this case, I should say a resounding YES!!!

    >Every industry benefits when the workers strive to do quality work.
    >As another old cliche goes; Quality doesn't cost, it pays....


    But what is quality in this case? Just because the methods through
    which an end result is achieved are new and different, doesn't
    necessarily make the different approach of less quality. Not all cars
    are built like a Rolls Royce, painstakingly over months by craftsmen,
    yet we know there are thousands of cars which, if anything, are of
    higher quality and more reliable. Look at the Liberty ships the US
    turned out in WWII. They had their production time eventually cut to a
    matter of days per vessel!

    MM

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