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Thread: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

  1. #496
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Maybe the fact that so many here are compalining about
    > it should clue you into the fact that this is a very big deal.


    Kent: "So many?" I count fewer than 10.
    --
    Phil Weber


  2. #497
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Sufficiently so to post your dismay to at least 3 different
    > forums.


    Jonathan: Just trying to stimulate discussion (and traffic to my Web log ;-)

    > Microsoft is probably already working on a better wizard.
    > If you want to duplicate that work you're welcome, but I don't
    > think it will interest me.
    >
    > Anybody other than Microsoft who tries to do a VB6.NET compiler
    > will probably feel Microsoft Legal Dept's hot breath on their necks
    > after a fairly short time.


    Sounds rather defeatist to me. Based on the above unsubstantiated
    assumptions, you're ready to throw in the towel without even trying?

    If I work on an improved upgrade tool and MS beats me to it, that's fine:
    the VB community gets a better tool. If mine turns out to be better than
    Microsoft's hypothetical tool, so much the better. But if I do nothing, and
    Microsoft's tool is not so great (or is nonexistent), nobody wins.

    Similarly, if I begin work on a VB6.NET compiler and MS Legal shuts me down,
    *then* I have a cause for complaint. But if I don't even try, I have no one
    to blame but myself.

    > Effectively, the only way to do that is to decide not to upgrade
    > to VB.NET...making your feelings clear about the situation in the
    > meantime. If enough people decide not to migrate then Microsoft
    > may get the message eventually.


    Ah, I see: passive-aggressive. ;-)
    --
    Phil Weber


  3. #498
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Hi Phil,

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:
    >If I work on an improved upgrade tool and MS beats me to it, that's fine:
    >the VB community gets a better tool. If mine turns out to be better than
    >Microsoft's hypothetical tool, so much the better. But if I do nothing,

    and
    >Microsoft's tool is not so great (or is nonexistent), nobody wins.


    I'm glad to see someone in the VB community is interested in actually doing
    something productive about compatibility. However, I seriously doubt you
    (as just one person) could write a better Upgrade Tool than the one MS is
    shipping. I guess you can try to make it a community project but even then
    it might be better at some things and it might be worse at other things.
    Users would have to choose between which set of problems to fix. How about
    writing something that works in conjuction with the Upgrade Wizard? For example,
    why not create a tool that converts GoSubs to Sub...End Sub's, and converts
    Dim s$ to Dim s As String. You make it a standalone tool, or a VB6 add-in.
    The user could run your tool first, and then the Upgrade Wizard. You could
    gradually add to features to it as time goes on. I think something like that
    could be helpful.

    /Pat
    --------------------------
    It's the platform, stupid.
    --------------------------

  4. #499
    Jonathan West Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote in message
    news:3e3ecbdb$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    > > Sufficiently so to post your dismay to at least 3 different
    > > forums.

    >
    > Jonathan: Just trying to stimulate discussion (and traffic to my Web log

    ;-)
    >
    > > Microsoft is probably already working on a better wizard.
    > > If you want to duplicate that work you're welcome, but I don't
    > > think it will interest me.
    > >
    > > Anybody other than Microsoft who tries to do a VB6.NET compiler
    > > will probably feel Microsoft Legal Dept's hot breath on their necks
    > > after a fairly short time.

    >
    > Sounds rather defeatist to me. Based on the above unsubstantiated
    > assumptions, you're ready to throw in the towel without even trying?
    >
    > If I work on an improved upgrade tool and MS beats me to it, that's fine:
    > the VB community gets a better tool. If mine turns out to be better than
    > Microsoft's hypothetical tool, so much the better. But if I do nothing,

    and
    > Microsoft's tool is not so great (or is nonexistent), nobody wins.


    The tool isn't really the issue. It's whether Microsoft can be trusted not
    to break people's code *again* once the tool (yours or Microsoft's) has been
    used to move the code to VB.NET. Personally, I have a good deal of
    skepticism on that point, given the attitude Microsoft took towards the
    issue during the beta and since then. I notice that Microsoft has been
    conspicuously silent in public on the topic of forward compatibility onwards
    from VB.NET.

    If they don't go back and fix the VB6 upgrade path, then they have one more
    major language break still to do, replacing VBA with VSA. I'd expect that
    they would try to run those in parallel for a while, but I also expect that
    it will be such a pain to manage two languages, two platforms and two event
    models within the same application that they will be under severe pressure
    to cut VBA as soon as decently possible, simply to cut down on development
    and maintenance costs. Therefore, I don't expect parallel operation to last
    more than one or 2 releases.

    Once they do that, it will take several years before they can shake the
    reputation of being serial language-breakers. Those for whom this is an
    issue will need to wait quite some time before they decide that Microsoft
    has changed its mind about forward-compatibility. Like three releases and a
    platform change, maybe 8 years or so. In that time, those waiting won't be
    generating upgrade revenues for Microsoft, and if that includes large Office
    customers, that might be a significant dent in revenues.

    >
    > Similarly, if I begin work on a VB6.NET compiler and MS Legal shuts me

    down,
    > *then* I have a cause for complaint.


    No, if you use Microsoft's intellectual property without Microsoft's
    permission, then *they* have cause for complaint, not you. You merely have
    what is coming to you. They wouldn't even have to win a lawsuit, just be
    able to pour sufficient resources into it that countering them leaves you
    with no time and resources actually to develop the product. Getting involved
    with that is a mug's game, and I'm not interested.

    > But if I don't even try, I have no one
    > to blame but myself.


    Not if trying is doomed to failure and therefore a waste of valuable
    resources. I don't pick fights I'm sure to lose.

    >
    > > Effectively, the only way to do that is to decide not to upgrade
    > > to VB.NET...making your feelings clear about the situation in the
    > > meantime. If enough people decide not to migrate then Microsoft
    > > may get the message eventually.

    >
    > Ah, I see: passive-aggressive. ;-)


    If you see a better way, then by all means follow it.

    --
    Regards
    Jonathan West


  5. #500
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:19:29 -0000, "Jonathan West" <jwest@mvps.org>
    wrote:

    >You should have plainly realised that all these were completely obsolete and
    >were never going to get included in a new version of VB. After all,
    >Microsoft told you this ahead of time, didn't they? They didn't? Really?


    Nope. I just had a good look on the outside of my VB6 packaging and it
    says narry a word about being superseded by a product that is almost
    completely incompatible. Just imagine how many they would have sold if
    they'd told the truth!

    MM

  6. #501
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 3 Feb 2003 05:32:24 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >See, this is what I'm talking about....you're lumping completely disparate
    >items together without making any distinction as to why these changes were
    >made. That you can't make such a distintion implies to me that you still
    >don't get it. Plus, it sounds like you're starting to get emotional about
    >all of this.


    Hey, suppose you come home and find someone's changed all the locks on
    your house and the only way to get in is through the windows? You're
    gonna get pretty emotional, too, no doubt!

    MM

  7. #502
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:12:49 -0800, "Phil Weber"
    <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:

    >Jonathan: Not really. The word I used to describe my feelings was
    >"dismayed."


    Yeah, like you go down the pub to meet up with your mates, and you go
    "Hi, guys! Know what? I'm REALLY dismayed!"

    MM

  8. #503
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:12:49 -0800, "Phil Weber"
    <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:

    >I don't think endlessly complaining and arguing against changes that have
    >already been made helps anyone. Why don't you spend all this time and effort
    >doing something useful?


    Who said this ain't useful?

    MM

  9. #504
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 3 Feb 2003 11:38:36 -0800, "Bob" <vb@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    >Or they may just drop VB entirely. And then where would you be?


    Still using VB6, probably. That's what we've been told to do anyway.
    Mind you, I don't think the VB.Net guys would be sending you any
    Christmas presents! (Except the one shaped like a horse's head...) Of
    course, they could always go down the pub with their mates and say
    "Goodness gracious, fellows! We are REALLY dismayed!"

    MM

  10. #505
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:12:49 -0800, "Phil Weber"
    <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:

    > > Remember that this whole thread started with Phil
    > > Weber being mightily pissed off...

    >
    >Jonathan: Not really. The word I used to describe my feelings was
    >"dismayed." I think it's unfortunate that VB developers didn't receive the
    >same consideration as C++ developers,


    Yes, this is the core problem.

    > and I'd like to do something practical
    >to help remedy the situation, such as create a better upgrade wizard or a
    >VB6.NET compiler.


    Huh??? What does "solving the symptom" have to do with "solving the
    problem".

    First, it's difficult to conceive of an upgrade wizard that will truly
    handle generic code (Microsoft couldn't/didn't) but let's assume you
    somehow create one. Do you think that will somehow make Microsoft
    treat VB developers with the same consideration they treat C++
    developers (aka... themselves).

    >I don't think endlessly complaining and arguing against changes that have
    >already been made helps anyone. Why don't you spend all this time and effort
    >doing something useful?


    Like creating the mythical upgrade wizard? Why don't *you* spend this
    time trying to convince Microsoft that this treatment is unacceptable.
    It's apparent that you think it's acceptable and I can assure you
    that's the slant they'll take on your position.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)/(#1!)
    Error 51
    Error 3
    Error 9
    ....

  11. #506
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:43:56 -0000, "Jonathan West" <jwest@mvps.org>
    wrote:

    >If you see a better way, then by all means follow it.


    Actually, thinking about what you said about VBA and VSA, I think the
    one, the only, the best solution all round is for Microsoft to swallow
    its pride and reinstate VB6 as a permanent Windows programming system
    for business applications. Then reposition .Net, VB.Net, C# etc as the
    XML Web Services platform of choice (but can also do standalone apps,
    console apps and system services if need be). Then forget all about
    replacing VBA with VSA, and allow all the various strands of
    traditional, classic Visual Basic to carry on for as long as Windows
    is still be sold and/or supported. That is, they would guarantee
    forward compatibility of current VB6/VBA apps into 64-bit and 128-bit
    Windows, or failing that they would upgrade the product to, say, VB8
    (since version 7 was used for VB.Net, I believe) and otherwise leave
    well alone.

    This would mean a few key people within Microsoft having to spit
    feathers for a day or two, but when they're on salaries and stock
    options that could buy Dubya a cruise missile or two, who the heck
    would worry about a bit of raw crow for breakfast?

    However, a couple of million bucks spent on some really good
    advertising from the marketing droids would easily help that tough old
    crow slip down real nice and smooth, like. And, of course, we'd all be
    beating a path to One Microsoft Way in order to sign the Book of
    Wonderment in praise to His Billness, for Verily He would be Truly
    Great.

    Just an idea - 'cos I'm REALLY dismayed 'bout all of this.

    MM

  12. #507
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:24:54 -0000, "Ed Courtenay"
    <my-first-name@edcourtenay.co.uk> wrote:

    >That's just about the most spurious argument for Wend I've yet seen. You're
    >seriously telling me that the nanosecond that it takes you to read two short
    >words is going to hold up your productivity? That's just ridiculous.


    Not for dyslexics. Each word is precious to them.

    MM

  13. #508
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 2 Feb 2003 10:59:54 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >In the upcoming version of VB.NET, there is a code snippet tool that will
    >upgrade code snippets. I'm not sure what the ETA is on that, but it went
    >into final beta a few weeks ago, so it should be released very shortly.


    Will that code snippet tool be able to upgrade itself? Wait a mo...can
    I overhear it while it's about to...ah! Locked on now to Snippet Sound
    on KYXB!

    "Hey, fellah, you look like you need upgrading!"

    "You talking to me? I said, are YOU talking to me?!!"

    "Too late, you're an old version, I mean, *I'm* an old version, so
    you're going to have to upgrade me right this second!"

    "Me upgrade you! What do you think I am?"

    "You're a code snippet tool, well, I am, too, of course..."

    "Hey, looks like we're in this old boat together, you and me!"

    "Okay, bygones. You upgrade me first, then I'll upgrade YOU!"

    "No, YOU first, then me!"

    "No, ME! - It was MY idea!"

    "Whaddya mean, 'Blue Screen of Death'?"

    MM

  14. #509
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Huh??? What does "solving the symptom" have to do
    > with "solving the problem"?


    Dan: Have you read "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People"? (See
    http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/circle.htm ) I have very little influence
    over Microsoft's opinion or treatment of VB developers. I have endeavored to
    exercise what little influence I /do/ have by expressing my viewpoint on my
    Web site and in the discussion groups in which I participate. I have no
    desire, however, to come across as bitter, whiney or combative, so, having
    stated my position, I'm done trying to influence Microsoft.

    I have considerably more influence, however, over helping VB6 developers
    solve the problem of moving their code bases to .NET, if they desire to do
    so. So rather than "tilt at windmills," I prefer to spend my resources
    helping real people solve real problems. If you think a grass-roots boycott
    is likely to influence VB's future, more power to you. I'm not convinced
    that it's helping anyone.
    --
    Phil Weber


  15. #510
    John Butler Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote in message news:3e3ec710$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > VB.Net is a vast departure from VB and so many "Language Extenstions" have
    > changed that it is impossible to continue a project started in VB6 and

    make
    > progress using the current development tools of the day.


    Rubbish. It is not a "vast departure" at all. If you'd actually tried it,
    you wouldn't make this statement. If there is a problem, then it's with
    subtle changes, which cause problems with the likes of Dan Barclay and
    others, who have massive VB6 code bases...and for whom the completely
    inadequate Upgrade Wizard does nothing. They don't have the time or luxury
    to rewrite code which may perform slightly differently. I completely
    understand that, and understand their frustration.

    However, having coded in VB.NET for more than a year now...I would not
    willingly go back to VB6. The advantages gained by having the use of a well
    thought out framework which allows me, as a VB programmer, to do anything
    that a C# or C++ programmer can do within managed code, far outweigh the
    cons. Two years ago, I never would have considered doing multi-threaded apps
    or writing windows services....that was always up to the C++ rocket
    scientists. Now I can do that and know that my app will run as well as
    theirs.

    Far from being marginalised, VB programmers can now compete with C# and C++
    programmers on merit...not on the benefits on their chosen programming
    language.

    I am not trying to defend any syntactical changes to the language. I
    understand the issues that people have with decisions that have been taken
    (some at random)....but you should not be so quick to dismiss the .NET
    platform because of these problems. It is still on version 1........in two
    years time, they may well have made the migration path (from VB6) a lot
    easier...we'll see. Either way, ignore it at your peril....because it is
    bloody good.

    Rgds
    John Butler





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