Microsoft's C++ bigotry - Page 35


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Thread: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

  1. #511
    Mark Jerde Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Far from being marginalised, VB programmers can now compete with C# and
    C++
    > programmers on merit...not on the benefits on their chosen programming
    > language.


    That's fine for those with *programming* as the primary emphasis. For those
    like me, who derive income by solving problems in domains other than the
    shoveling around of bits, perhaps the mastery of the framework represents
    too high a bar.

    Not unachievable, of course, but not worth the effort.

    As a parallel, suppose operation of a motor vehicle was limited to those
    able to intelligently discuss the Rankine cycle. Of the people I know, umm,
    .... nope, ... not him.... not her... not him either... Gee, I guess
    I'm the only person in my current sphere who appreciates the miracle that
    happens when the ignition switch is turned to the 'start' position.

    I was a VB evangelist from VB2 through VB6. Though I *hate* Pascal, I now
    write in Delphi & will do .NET code that way...

    -- Mark



  2. #512
    Ian R Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Hi Mark,

    "Mark Jerde" <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote in message
    news:3e3f19f4@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > That's fine for those with *programming* as the primary emphasis. For

    those
    > like me, who derive income by solving problems in domains other than the
    > shoveling around of bits, perhaps the mastery of the framework represents
    > too high a bar.
    >
    > Not unachievable, of course, but not worth the effort.
    >


    You don't need to "shovel bits" to use the language or need to master the
    framework to use the language.
    In some cases the new changes are even easier. A few minor examples.

    VB.Net

    If x.EndsWith("Somestring") Then

    Form.TopMost = ...
    Control.Dock = ...

    VB6

    SomeTempVariable = "Somestring"
    If Right$(x,Len(SomeTempVariable)) = SomeTempVariable Then

    Form.TopMost = (bunch of mucking around with SetWindowPos api)
    Control.Dock = (bunch of code in the Form Resize event)

    >
    > I was a VB evangelist from VB2 through VB6. Though I *hate* Pascal, I now
    > write in Delphi & will do .NET code that way...
    >


    This I don't understand. I don't see languages changes drastic enough to
    justify this. If you like and are comfortable with VB6 syntax you should
    like and be comfortable with VB.Net syntax. As far as learning the framework
    I don't see any difference between learning that and the 10's or 100's of
    ActiveX libraries and components that you would have to buy, learn and debug
    to accomplish the same thing. If anything the framework is easier since it's
    more consistent.



  3. #513
    Jens Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > I cannot believe how many M$ loyalists just roll with the changes without
    > so much as shrugging thier shoulders.


    Because , and I know all of you NOTters refuse to believe that, we actually
    didn't have much probelsm with the changes. We upgraded a big COM+/ASP web
    project in a few days to VB.NET. But off course we coded it right from the
    beginning. Data-acces changes ? No problem, we just needed to rewrite our
    dataaccess module. The way components render themselve changed ? No
    problem, HTML is still HTML, just render it in the new Render method.
    VB.NET only brought us more possibilities, a more stable environment and
    cleaner code.
    That's the reason we shrug our shoulders when all of you are whining.

    Jens



  4. #514
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Bob,

    > If you are an example, you could have migrated 2 or 3 apps already in

    about
    > the same amount of time as you have spend complaining here.


    I don't know about Jonathan, nor do I know the type of apps you develop.
    What I do know is that I have one app to migrate, and I can assure you that
    there is no way I could migrate it in the time I've spent complaining here.
    Just to give you a conservative calculation, if I thought that in about 100
    times the amount of time I've spent complaining here I could have converted
    the app, I would not be complaining, but would be at work doing the
    migration.

    By the way, I have migrated a couple of small test apps, and I know what I'm
    talking about.

    Gary



  5. #515
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    If you had to rewrite your app anyway then it was probably no big deal. Though
    I would question the quality of your original work.

    Get it through your head. My point is and always will be that one should
    not have to rewrite their applications to use VB.Net.

    How can I make that more clear?


    "Jens" <jens@esalar.be> wrote:
    >> I cannot believe how many M$ loyalists just roll with the changes without
    >> so much as shrugging thier shoulders.

    >
    >Because , and I know all of you NOTters refuse to believe that, we actually
    >didn't have much probelsm with the changes. We upgraded a big COM+/ASP

    web
    >project in a few days to VB.NET. But off course we coded it right from

    the
    >beginning. Data-acces changes ? No problem, we just needed to rewrite

    our
    >dataaccess module. The way components render themselve changed ? No
    >problem, HTML is still HTML, just render it in the new Render method.
    >VB.NET only brought us more possibilities, a more stable environment and
    >cleaner code.
    >That's the reason we shrug our shoulders when all of you are whining.
    >
    >Jens
    >
    >



  6. #516
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Mark,

    Good for you. Personally, I love Pascal. Not sure that I would use it now,
    but I used it back in my data structures class in college. It was a great
    tool for learning structured programming and Turbo Pascal (later became Delphi)
    was the fastest compiler on the market. I always wanted to find a Pascal
    job out of college, but no one used it Until .Net came along Delphi had
    changed very little from the old Turbo Pascal days. Just goes to show you
    that despite what has been said here, a language need not be "retooled" every
    10 years like some have said here.

    Best of luck,

    Kent

    "Mark Jerde" <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote:
    >> Far from being marginalised, VB programmers can now compete with C# and

    >C++
    >> programmers on merit...not on the benefits on their chosen programming
    >> language.

    >
    >That's fine for those with *programming* as the primary emphasis. For those
    >like me, who derive income by solving problems in domains other than the
    >shoveling around of bits, perhaps the mastery of the framework represents
    >too high a bar.
    >
    >Not unachievable, of course, but not worth the effort.
    >
    >As a parallel, suppose operation of a motor vehicle was limited to those
    >able to intelligently discuss the Rankine cycle. Of the people I know,

    umm,
    >.... nope, ... not him.... not her... not him either... Gee, I guess
    >I'm the only person in my current sphere who appreciates the miracle that
    >happens when the ignition switch is turned to the 'start' position.
    >
    >I was a VB evangelist from VB2 through VB6. Though I *hate* Pascal, I now
    >write in Delphi & will do .NET code that way...
    >
    > -- Mark
    >
    >



  7. #517
    Paul Clement Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 3 Feb 2003 11:46:24 -0800, "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:


    Paul,

    Call them what you will "languages extensions" I could care less. If you're
    fine with VB.Net then for you it's perfect, you should be happy. Go off
    and use it.

    Well I guess that since you "could care less" then you must a care a little bit ;-)

    Not sure what your point is. I could say the same. If you're *not* fine with VB.NET then go off and
    don't use it. There's no entitlement here.


    VB.Net is a vast departure from VB and so many "Language Extenstions" have
    changed that it is impossible to continue a project started in VB6 and make
    progress using the current development tools of the day. This is flat out
    an injustice and there is no justifiable reason for it.

    Yes, there is a learning curve no doubt, and the conversion of existing Classic Visual Basic
    projects is no cakewalk. I believe that has been established. An injustice? Hardly.


    Maybe the fact that so many here are compalining about it should clue you
    into the fact that this is a very big deal.

    It doesn't make the complainers any more important that those who are not complaining (or vice
    versa).


    Not enough has been said about this yet. I wish the media would make a bigger
    deal out of it.

    Well I would say that enough has been said and repeated, ad infinitum, since the beta and changes
    were announced.


    Paul ~~~ pclement@ameritech.net
    Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

  8. #518
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    John,

    As I pointed out long ago, we did a pilot VB.Net project when we got our
    hands on the beta. I didn't work on the project myself, but I have used
    VB.Net and used C# both with .Net and Mono.

    Is it so hard for you to understand that someone who has used VB.Net may
    in fact not be very impressed? Just because the concepts may seem fresh
    new and exciting to the average VB developer does not mean these concepts
    are new!

    The concepts have been around for some time and I assume there is a reason
    this company didn't go with one of the pure OO tools in the first place.
    All things said, the compatibility issue is the deal breaker however.

    You don't think it's a departure? I know 6 developers here and dozens more
    I've met online who will tell you different. They don't get OO and they
    don't want to understand OO. While Pat has said that they don't need to
    understand it, the Architects here will not do a half assed job of design
    and not apply OO to the design. To use VB.Net properly to implement an OO
    design from scratch, you had better understand OO concepts.

    The VB6 developers here who cannot grasp OO have now been reduced to maintenance
    duties which is just fine for now. Because of the compatibility issue, they
    will have to learn OO concepts in Java to continue to provide value to this
    company or find another place to apply their VB6/VBA skills. These are the
    cold hard facts!

    I'm not a manager (thank god!) and I don't make the decisions here, but I
    support and understand their position.

    As for you being able to do anything a C# developer can do with the framework,
    I would say that reduces the value of the multi language capability of the
    platform. There used to be a reason to choose VB over C# now there is not.
    Curley braces vs End if blocks is not a good enough reason to choose VB
    over C# I doubt most shops will even allow this. They will choose one language
    or the other and stick with it.

    Kent

    "John Butler" <nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote in message news:3e3ec710$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >>
    >> VB.Net is a vast departure from VB and so many "Language Extenstions"

    have
    >> changed that it is impossible to continue a project started in VB6 and

    >make
    >> progress using the current development tools of the day.

    >
    >Rubbish. It is not a "vast departure" at all. If you'd actually tried it,
    >you wouldn't make this statement. If there is a problem, then it's with
    >subtle changes, which cause problems with the likes of Dan Barclay and
    >others, who have massive VB6 code bases...and for whom the completely
    >inadequate Upgrade Wizard does nothing. They don't have the time or luxury
    >to rewrite code which may perform slightly differently. I completely
    >understand that, and understand their frustration.
    >
    >However, having coded in VB.NET for more than a year now...I would not
    >willingly go back to VB6. The advantages gained by having the use of a well
    >thought out framework which allows me, as a VB programmer, to do anything
    >that a C# or C++ programmer can do within managed code, far outweigh the
    >cons. Two years ago, I never would have considered doing multi-threaded

    apps
    >or writing windows services....that was always up to the C++ rocket
    >scientists. Now I can do that and know that my app will run as well as
    >theirs.
    >
    >Far from being marginalised, VB programmers can now compete with C# and

    C++
    >programmers on merit...not on the benefits on their chosen programming
    >language.
    >
    >I am not trying to defend any syntactical changes to the language. I
    >understand the issues that people have with decisions that have been taken
    >(some at random)....but you should not be so quick to dismiss the .NET
    >platform because of these problems. It is still on version 1........in two
    >years time, they may well have made the migration path (from VB6) a lot
    >easier...we'll see. Either way, ignore it at your peril....because it is
    >bloody good.
    >
    >Rgds
    >John Butler
    >
    >
    >
    >



  9. #519
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Paul,

    Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
    >Well I guess that since you "could care less" then you must a care a little

    bit ;-)
    >
    >Not sure what your point is. I could say the same. If you're *not* fine

    with VB.NET
    >then go off and
    >don't use it. There's no entitlement here.


    No, because you have nothing to complain about and I clearly do. You must
    feel it is your job to make my issues seem insignificant to other users of
    VB.Net?

    >Yes, there is a learning curve no doubt, and the conversion of existing

    Classic Visual
    >Basic
    >projects is no cakewalk. I believe that has been established. An injustice?

    Hardly.

    Yet some here find it necessary to argue this and say. It's not difficult
    to port VB6 code to .Net and that VB6 coders need not learn the OO features
    of VB.Net to be productive. I don't see you responding to their posts.

    >
    > Maybe the fact that so many here are compalining about it should clue

    you
    > into the fact that this is a very big deal.
    >
    >It doesn't make the complainers any more important that those who are not

    complaining
    >(or vice
    >versa).


    >Well I would say that enough has been said and repeated, ad infinitum, since

    the beta
    >and changes
    >were announced.


    Yeah, maybe I'll write a program to add my posts for me at random Or
    maybe we should just script the entire thing like a pro wrestling match.

    Just don't be surprised as the usage of VB continues to decline as the compatibility
    issue continues to be a problem. As this happens I'm sure you'll begin to
    understand the vast importance of this issue.

    I have nothing against any of you personally, this is not a personal matter.
    Just want to be clear. I may have even had a drink with one or two of you
    at a VBits conference at one time or another. Those were the good ol days.

    Kent


  10. #520
    Jens Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > If you had to rewrite your app anyway then it was probably no big deal.
    Though
    > I would question the quality of your original work.


    *** I see that reading is not your strongest skill. I did not have to
    rewrite my app, I had to modify isolated areas, which is really not abig
    deal in a well designed multi-tier application. Guess you never have seen
    one from close up so I wonder who should the question the quality of who's
    work ...

    >
    > Get it through your head. My point is and always will be that one should
    > not have to rewrite their applications to use VB.Net.

    *** We did not have to ...

    >
    > How can I make that more clear?
    >
    >
    > "Jens" <jens@esalar.be> wrote:
    > >> I cannot believe how many M$ loyalists just roll with the changes

    without
    > >> so much as shrugging thier shoulders.

    > >
    > >Because , and I know all of you NOTters refuse to believe that, we

    actually
    > >didn't have much probelsm with the changes. We upgraded a big COM+/ASP

    > web
    > >project in a few days to VB.NET. But off course we coded it right from

    > the
    > >beginning. Data-acces changes ? No problem, we just needed to rewrite

    > our
    > >dataaccess module. The way components render themselve changed ? No
    > >problem, HTML is still HTML, just render it in the new Render method.
    > >VB.NET only brought us more possibilities, a more stable environment and
    > >cleaner code.
    > >That's the reason we shrug our shoulders when all of you are whining.
    > >
    > >Jens
    > >
    > >

    >




  11. #521
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:19:43 -0500, "Ian R" <ianr@na.net> wrote:

    >If x.EndsWith("Somestring") Then


    So, how about

    If x.DoesntEndWith("Somestring") Then...?

    Or what about

    If x.AlmostEndsWithLessTwoCharacters("Somestring") Then...?

    All in all, too prescriptive, too rigid, too OOPy, not BASIC enough.

    MM

  12. #522
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Hi Mike,

    Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:19:43 -0500, "Ian R" <ianr@na.net> wrote:
    >
    >>If x.EndsWith("Somestring") Then

    >
    >So, how about
    >
    >If x.DoesntEndWith("Somestring") Then...?


    Try this...

    If Not x.EndsWith("Somestring") Then

    ...or....

    If x.EndsWith("Somestring") = False Then

    /Pat
    --------------------------
    It's the platform, stupid.
    --------------------------

  13. #523
    Bob Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >...
    > Curley braces vs End if blocks is not a good enough reason to choose VB
    >over C# I doubt most shops will even allow this. They will choose one language
    >or the other and stick with it.

    What ever .Net language they choose, at least they have a choice. The other
    option is a dreary eternal diet of J-a-v-a and it's JSR soup.

  14. #524
    Ian R Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    Mike, Don't be an idiot ok ? If you have something worthwhile to discuss, do
    so. Otherwise stf.

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:fvkv3v8443fqorgtnomb422mv07svh51at@4ax.com...
    > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:19:43 -0500, "Ian R" <ianr@na.net> wrote:
    >
    > >If x.EndsWith("Somestring") Then

    >
    > So, how about
    >
    > If x.DoesntEndWith("Somestring") Then...?
    >
    > Or what about
    >
    > If x.AlmostEndsWithLessTwoCharacters("Somestring") Then...?
    >
    > All in all, too prescriptive, too rigid, too OOPy, not BASIC enough.
    >
    > MM




  15. #525
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    Bob,

    You call a bunch of bastardized languages a choice? Being able to use VB6
    on .Net would be a choice. At least if fou use Java you can use Windows
    or a secure OS like Linux, Mac, Solaris or whatever else you want and the
    language does not pretend or need to support several dialects, though this
    could be added down the road via the JCP.

    Even Jason has pointed out how similar the languages are, so I rest my case.
    No one said a word when he made his comments. I say the same thing and
    I'm the anti-christ.

    JSRs are great, you should hope .Net gets something similar that promotes
    developer invlovement. Then again, you must be content letting Microsoft
    make your decisions for you.

    If you use VB.Net your 75% of the way to being able to use C#

    Kent



    "Bob" <vb@127.0.0.1> wrote:
    >
    >"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
    >>...
    >> Curley braces vs End if blocks is not a good enough reason to choose VB
    >>over C# I doubt most shops will even allow this. They will choose one

    language
    >>or the other and stick with it.

    >What ever .Net language they choose, at least they have a choice. The other
    >option is a dreary eternal diet of J-a-v-a and it's JSR soup.



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