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Thread: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

  1. #571
    Mark Jerde Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > You wouldn't want your doctor managing your diabetes or
    > your heart attack with books from the 1970's.


    <preface>
    I like the technology of .NET.
    </preface>

    The difference is the changes in medical books are due to increasing
    science, whereas to some degree the obsolence of VB6 texts is the result of
    a single ill-advised business decision of a single effectively monolopostic
    company.

    -- Mark



  2. #572
    Mark Jerde Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > But business is business, whether it's healthcare or IT. Medicine directs
    > its efforts at solving real-world problems --- thus new drugs, new

    treatments,
    > new tools (some developed with the assistance of programmers), new

    surgeries.
    > But each one of these "advances" brings on its own problem set -- problems
    > that need to be addressed.


    > To assume that the move to .NET is not an attempt
    > to address real-world business problems is exceedingly naive.


    Again, I like .NET. I dislike the philosophy with which *VB*.NET was
    implemented, and believe it is an indicator of a certain company's respect
    for the code base of its users. I also think .NET is a step in that
    company's goal of deriving income from every mouse click of every user,
    which scares me.

    > Does this transition
    > create a new set of problems? Yes. Does this mean that .NET is worthless?
    > No.


    IMO the world would be better if MS had implemented CORBA instead of
    inventing COM. Similarily, if MS & Sun could have looked at the world
    instead of themselves -- ie, putting the USERS first -- things would be
    better.


    > And don't assume that doctors or nurses don't resist new technologies --
    > they do. They whine and complain just as much as the .NOTs do on this

    board.
    > It doesn't stop changes from occurring, it just raises their stress level.


    Careful, this is an area I know something about. My family has several
    doctors, nurses, and a lawyer and an undertaker. We have all the bases
    covered. ;-)

    Our next door neighbor in 1964 died from kidney disease. In the 1970's my
    dad, an M.D., started a dialysis unit in western South Dakota that would
    have kept the 60's next door neighbor alive until he was old. My dad also
    started two other new programs of treatment, and as a teen I observed the
    first of a certain procedure done in South Dakota.

    In my experience "young thinking" medical people are quick to embrace
    technologies which help people (unless constrained by legal issues or
    potential legal issues.)

    Some years ago my wife updated her nursing license, spending many hours in
    classes. Unfortunately, fully half the time was spent in legal issues, not
    the science of helping people heal. Find a lawyer & thank him or her.

    -- Mark




  3. #573
    PWilmarth Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Mark Jerde" <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote:
    >> And don't assume that doctors or nurses don't resist new technologies

    --
    >> they do. They whine and complain just as much as the .NOTs do on this

    >board.
    >> It doesn't stop changes from occurring, it just raises their stress level.

    >
    >Careful, this is an area I know something about. My family has several
    >doctors, nurses, and a lawyer and an undertaker. We have all the bases
    >covered. ;-)
    >
    >Our next door neighbor in 1964 died from kidney disease. In the 1970's

    my
    >dad, an M.D., started a dialysis unit in western South Dakota that would
    >have kept the 60's next door neighbor alive until he was old. My dad also
    >started two other new programs of treatment, and as a teen I observed the
    >first of a certain procedure done in South Dakota.
    >
    >In my experience "young thinking" medical people are quick to embrace
    >technologies which help people (unless constrained by legal issues or
    >potential legal issues.)


    Well, Mark, this is an area I also know a great deal about, being both an
    RN and a programmer. "Young thinking" medical people become tomorrow's "old
    doctor", with outdated knowledge and skills. (Your father was a "young-thinking"
    medical person in 1970's). After a number of years in this business, I can
    tell you that today's research study can be refuted by a new study next year
    (think Estrogen Replacement Therapy for menopause). It's still up to the
    individual practitioner to formulate a treatment plan based on their own
    best clinical judgement. In evaluating new intiatives in IT (including .NET),
    it's no different. You choose which one you embrace, based on your knowledge
    and experience.

    >
    >Some years ago my wife updated her nursing license, spending many hours

    in
    >classes. Unfortunately, fully half the time was spent in legal issues,

    not
    >the science of helping people heal. Find a lawyer & thank him or her.


    Well, I won't disagree with you there. Practitioners spend too much of their
    time consumed with protecting themselves against lawsuits or pleasing the
    regulators. And, given our suit-happy society, you couldn't blame Microsoft
    if they aren't thinking the same thing.


  4. #574
    Mark Jerde Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    > Well, Mark, this is an area I also know a great deal about, being both an
    > RN and a programmer. "Young thinking" medical people become tomorrow's

    "old
    > doctor", with outdated knowledge and skills. (Your father was a

    "young-thinking"
    > medical person in 1970's). After a number of years in this business, I can
    > tell you that today's research study can be refuted by a new study next

    year
    > (think Estrogen Replacement Therapy for menopause). It's still up to the
    > individual practitioner to formulate a treatment plan based on their own
    > best clinical judgement. In evaluating new intiatives in IT (including

    ..NET),
    > it's no different. You choose which one you embrace, based on your

    knowledge
    > and experience.


    I've seen some very "young thinking" doctors in very old bodies, and some
    very "old thinking" doctors in very young bodies. ;-) The chronological
    age doesn't seem to have much to do with it, as long as the neurons are
    still firing.


    > After a number of years in this business, I can
    > tell you that today's research study can be refuted by a new study next

    year
    > (think Estrogen Replacement Therapy for menopause).


    I have many old books, including a set of childrens' encyclopedias showing
    the the U.S.S. Arizona steaming into New York harbor, picture of "The Great
    War" (now WWI) and President Harding. (? have to look it up?)

    Many of the science things are a hoot to read:
    - The mountains were caused by the crinkling of the earth as it cooled.
    - The universe might be as large as 30,000 light years across.

    Application: Much of today's knowledge will be tomorrow's joke as we gain
    better information.

    -- Mark



  5. #575
    PWilmarth Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Mark Jerde" <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote:
    >I've seen some very "young thinking" doctors in very old bodies, and some
    >very "old thinking" doctors in very young bodies. ;-) The chronological
    >age doesn't seem to have much to do with it, as long as the neurons are
    >still firing.
    >

    True, but the world tends to go by outward appearances. And in medicine,
    sometimes, people get nervous having that "young doctor" take care of them,
    even though they may be better schooled in the newest treatments.


  6. #576
    Vinay Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry




    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:
    >Vinay: I agree that the docs could be better, but I haven't experienced

    the
    >difficulty you describe in finding answers to my questions. By searching

    at
    >www.google.com , groups.google.com and/or news.devx.com , I've been able

    to
    >find the solutions to most of my .NET issues within minutes.
    >--
    >Phil Weber
    >


    And I never said that u r not able to find solutions. The point is if u have
    vs.net and its documentation (or some text editor & framework SDK) then u
    need not have to visit ngs or read books for help.
    Well the current documentation has class lib documentation but it lacks some
    things...... hmm... if u know UML, its like current docs contains only class
    diagrams but it lacks (mainly) collaberation diagrams and use cases.

    If someone asks me what u want in next release of .NET platform, my answer
    will be comprehensive documentation as first priority.

    Vinay.



  7. #577
    PWilmarth Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    "Mark Jerde" <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote:
    >I have many old books, including a set of childrens' encyclopedias showing
    >the the U.S.S. Arizona steaming into New York harbor, picture of "The Great
    >War" (now WWI) and President Harding. (? have to look it up?)
    >
    >Many of the science things are a hoot to read:
    > - The mountains were caused by the crinkling of the earth as it cooled.
    > - The universe might be as large as 30,000 light years across.
    >
    >Application: Much of today's knowledge will be tomorrow's joke as we gain
    >better information.
    >
    > -- Mark


    I enjoyed reading those. Sometimes, it's hard to believe how much people
    didn't know, even as little as 30 years ago.

  8. #578
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 6 Feb 2003 17:28:43 -0800, <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    >Mike, I don't know of any profession where this isn't true. If you want to
    >stay competitive and marketable, you have to continually upgrade your knowledge
    >and your skills. You wouldn't want your doctor managing your diabetes or
    >your heart attack with books from the 1970's.


    But that knowledge builds upon existing knowledge by expanding what we
    already know with what we later find out. VB.Net is fundamentally
    different from classic VB, however. It's as if a doctor suddenly
    decides to become a veterinary. However, even then there are a lot of
    similarities between human beings and other animals. In the case of
    VB.Net, though, there is probably not a paragraph in any VB.Net book
    that could be said to be compatible with any classic book on VB, hence
    all the latter *are* redundant.

    MM

  9. #579
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 6 Feb 2003 18:38:36 -0800, <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    >..... To assume that the move to .NET is not an attempt
    >to address real-world business problems is exceedingly naive. Does this transition
    >create a new set of problems? Yes. Does this mean that .NET is worthless?
    >No.


    This latter question really deserves further consideration. I still do
    not know what glaring gap in technology required a WHOLE NEW SYSTEM,
    rather than evolve gradually from where we were. And I cannot help but
    come to the conclusion that it was done (a) to give the finger to Sun
    over the Java business; and (b) to refresh the Microsoft revenue
    stream following the stagnation of the PC market. That is, a *genuine*
    reason was there none.

    MM

  10. #580
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:29:50 -0500, "Mark Jerde"
    <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote:

    >Careful, this is an area I know something about. My family has several
    >doctors, nurses, and a lawyer and an undertaker. We have all the bases
    >covered. ;-)


    Hey, just think of Six Feet Under, ER and Scrubs! The royalities
    accruing to just one family could be enormous!

    MM

  11. #581
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:05:06 -0500, "Mark Jerde"
    <mark.jerde@verizon.no.spam.net> wrote:

    >I've seen some very "young thinking" doctors in very old bodies, and some
    >very "old thinking" doctors in very young bodies. ;-) The chronological
    >age doesn't seem to have much to do with it, as long as the neurons are
    >still firing.


    I'd rather have an old doctor than a young one. Experience counts for
    a lot, in my view. The young-uns are keen, but haven't yet developed
    that sixth sense for what is potentially serious and what probably
    isn't. Most older doctors can tell at a glance the moment the patient
    walks into the consulting room whether it's serious or not. All their
    senses are attuned to it, and that comes only after many years and
    seeing countless thousands of patients. Oh, and so as not to break the
    cycle, I, too, have a doctor in the family!

    MM

  12. #582
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 7 Feb 2003 01:34:48 -0800, "PWilmarth" <PWILMARTH80231@MSN.COM>
    wrote:

    >I enjoyed reading those. Sometimes, it's hard to believe how much people
    >didn't know, even as little as 30 years ago.


    Like all 30-year-olds, in fact...

    MM

  13. #583
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

    On 6 Feb 2003 23:39:08 -0800, "Vinay" <vinayc@angelfire.com> wrote:

    >things...... hmm... if u know UML, its like current docs contains only class


    U no, u don't write it like that, u should write it YouEmmEll so that
    we can understand it more easily.

    MM

  14. #584
    Arron Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    I thought goto and gosub were bad programming practice and were now deeply
    frowned on? why would you need one?
    Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:05:15 -0600, Paul Clement
    ><UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>OK, I'm confused. How do you execute a GoSub statement if it's after an

    Exit Sub or
    >Function.
    >
    >You're kidding, eh? *Please* say you're kidding. This could explain
    >a lot.
    >
    >Sub MySub()
    >
    > GoSub DoDaSub
    >
    >Exit Sub
    >
    >DoDaSub:
    >Return
    >
    >End Sub
    >
    >
    >Dan
    >Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    > (#6)/(#1!)
    >Error 51
    >Error 3
    >Error 9
    >....



  15. #585
    Kent Guest

    Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry


    So that old VB source will still compile under VB.Net. We've been down this
    road seemingly 100s of times, check the other posts.

    It's always been bad practice to use gotos the sudden realization that the
    language needed to be "purified" is what has come into question.

    "Arron" <s_drac2@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >I thought goto and gosub were bad programming practice and were now deeply
    >frowned on? why would you need one?



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