Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...


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Thread: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

  1. #1
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    Hi Folks --

    Y'all seemed most interested in Bruce's earlier takes on VB and VFred. Thought you'd
    like to know he's finished compiling some more thoughts on the latter. You can find
    them linked from his Hardcore page:

    http://www.pobox.com/HardcoreVB

    Classic Bruce, be warned! You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll scream with terror!!! :-)

    Enjoy... Karl
    --
    http://www.mvps.org/vb/rants/vfred.htm



  2. #2
    Jason Bock Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote in message
    news:3a8adc20@news.devx.com...
    > I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He

    was
    > a bit vague.


    Does it matter?



  3. #3
    Aaron Anderson Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He was
    a bit vague.

    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3a8ad496@news.devx.com...
    > Hi Folks --
    >
    > Y'all seemed most interested in Bruce's earlier takes on VB and VFred.

    Thought you'd
    > like to know he's finished compiling some more thoughts on the latter.

    You can find
    > them linked from his Hardcore page:
    >
    > http://www.pobox.com/HardcoreVB
    >
    > Classic Bruce, be warned! You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll scream with

    terror!!! :-)
    >
    > Enjoy... Karl
    > --
    > http://www.mvps.org/vb/rants/vfred.htm
    >
    >




  4. #4
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote:

    >I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He was
    >a bit vague.


    "If I were going to adopt the vision of a large company, it would be Sun
    rather than Microsoft. I don’t see any significant advantage between Java
    with its associated technologies and the emerging .NET vision. Sure, the
    details are different, but they’re both trying to get the same place. And
    Sun has a big head start, and less of a reputation for stabbing its
    competitors."

    You're right, his intentions aren't clear. Apparently he would go with
    Sun if he was "going to adopt the vision of a large company". However,
    apparently, he is hoping for some small company language solution.

    I think there are a number of other issues which can be discussed,
    something I may get around to today.

    For instance, I wonder what McKinney finds so honorable in the way that
    Sun has used the government in an attempt to stab Microsoft. Dragging
    politicians into what was previously a technical and marketting battle
    has, in my opinion, dire long-term consequences.

    Also, with regard to Sun's "big head start" I think it would be worthwhile
    to introduce some historical perspective. MS has almost never been first
    in innovation. Anyone who has been around since the 80s must certainly
    have seen Borland _consistently_ introduce new technology - such as c++ -
    before MS. And, imo, once MS has seen a market they have filled the
    developing needs better than Borland. Or at least that's what the reality
    of sales would seem to indicate.




    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  5. #5
    Jason Bock Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    "Jason Bock" <jrbock@nospam.execpc.com> wrote in message
    news:3a8adc6d$1@news.devx.com...
    > "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a8adc20@news.devx.com...
    > > I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He

    > was
    > > a bit vague.

    >
    > Does it matter?


    To clarify - Bruce has his opinion about .NET. It's a very safe bet that he
    spent some time looking at himself (although I don't know that for sure).
    But why does it matter if he uses it or not in the future? Specifically,
    what does it matter to you? Or anyone else?

    I guess I just don't get why anyone cares about what anyone else is and/or
    will use for their development tools. As one of my favorite sayings goes,
    "Calm down. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros." I don't think .NET or
    Java or Eiffel or (put tool/language here) has changed that. They all do
    the same thing (more or less, I'm generalizing here) at the end of the day.

    Regards,

    Jason



  6. #6
    Aaron Anderson Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    Sort of.

    "Jason Bock" <jrbock@nospam.execpc.com> wrote in message
    news:3a8adc6d$1@news.devx.com...
    > "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a8adc20@news.devx.com...
    > > I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He

    > was
    > > a bit vague.

    >
    > Does it matter?
    >
    >




  7. #7
    Vlad Ivanov Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    Hi Aaron,

    I don't think it's vague

    Here's the bit:

    The insulting language changes described here (and many others not
    described) are actually a fairly small part of VB.NET. Most of them could be
    changed for second beta. Perhaps Microsoft has heard our cries and is fixing
    these design bugs as I write. But frankly, I'm not going to be using VB.NET
    no matter what they do to fix it. The reasons are mostly political.



    "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote in message
    news:3a8adc20@news.devx.com...
    > I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He

    was
    > a bit vague.
    >





  8. #8
    Aaron Anderson Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    But he might use C#

    "Vlad Ivanov" <vivanov@polarisconsulting.com> wrote in message
    news:3a8ae424$2@news.devx.com...
    > Hi Aaron,
    >
    > I don't think it's vague
    >
    > Here's the bit:
    >
    > The insulting language changes described here (and many others not
    > described) are actually a fairly small part of VB.NET. Most of them could

    be
    > changed for second beta. Perhaps Microsoft has heard our cries and is

    fixing
    > these design bugs as I write. But frankly, I'm not going to be using

    VB.NET
    > no matter what they do to fix it. The reasons are mostly political.
    >
    >
    >
    > "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a8adc20@news.devx.com...
    > > I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He

    > was
    > > a bit vague.
    > >

    >
    >
    >




  9. #9
    Bob Butler Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...


    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3a8ad496@news.devx.com...
    > Hi Folks --
    >
    > Y'all seemed most interested in Bruce's earlier takes on VB and VFred.

    Thought you'd
    > like to know he's finished compiling some more thoughts on the latter.

    You can find
    > them linked from his Hardcore page:
    >
    > http://www.pobox.com/HardcoreVB
    >
    > Classic Bruce, be warned! You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll scream with

    terror!!! :-)

    "If they think this adds some sort of safety, they should have added an
    Option Anal and require the qualifications only for programmers who choose
    it. "

    ROTFLMAO




  10. #10
    Mark Burns Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...


    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3a8ad496@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Classic Bruce, be warned! You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll scream with

    terror!!! :-)

    Ok, what can I say but...you were right, I laughed, I cried...and I think
    I've decided...
    <having said that, I walk over to the flagstaff and get prepared to haul the
    Visual Basic pennant down to half-staff...a C# manual tucked under my
    arm...wondering only if I should wait for a peek at Beta 2's "big changes"
    before I actually do it...>



  11. #11
    Larry Serflaten Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...


    "Aaron Anderson" <aaron@skypoint.com> wrote in message news:3a8adc20@news.devx.com...
    > I'm a bit unclear...is he or is he not going to actually *use* .NET? He was
    > a bit vague.
    >


    "So if I were going to program for .NET, I'd pick C#. But of course I'm not. C# and VB.NET are not general-purpose languages.
    "

    I'd say he does not intend to use it.

    LFS




  12. #12
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    I think these two paragraphs sum up the reasons behind a lot of the
    arguments on this newsgroup.

    **********
    I asked for a class library, but I assumed they would put it on top of the
    existing system, not make it the foundation of a new one. I asked for
    inheritance, but I assumed I would be the one to use it, not them. I asked
    for procedure variables, but for my own use, not as the basis of a new event
    model. I asked for language changes, but not for a whole new language.

    Now that I see Visual Basic.NET in the flesh, I realize it was a pipedream
    to believe we could have the old VB with a few new features. Things have
    gone too far. The original VB was one of the coolest hacks in history, but
    still a hack.
    **************
    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3a8ad496@news.devx.com...
    > Hi Folks --
    >
    > Y'all seemed most interested in Bruce's earlier takes on VB and VFred.

    Thought you'd
    > like to know he's finished compiling some more thoughts on the latter.

    You can find
    > them linked from his Hardcore page:
    >
    > http://www.pobox.com/HardcoreVB
    >
    > Classic Bruce, be warned! You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll scream with

    terror!!! :-)
    >
    > Enjoy... Karl
    > --
    > http://www.mvps.org/vb/rants/vfred.htm
    >
    >




  13. #13
    --==[ russ ]==-- Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    I'd have to say I agree with you.

    --

    --------
    Russ



    "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    news:3a8b24e2@news.devx.com...
    > I think these two paragraphs sum up the reasons behind a lot of the
    > arguments on this newsgroup.
    >
    > **********
    > I asked for a class library, but I assumed they would put it on top of the
    > existing system, not make it the foundation of a new one. I asked for
    > inheritance, but I assumed I would be the one to use it, not them. I asked
    > for procedure variables, but for my own use, not as the basis of a new

    event
    > model. I asked for language changes, but not for a whole new language.
    >
    > Now that I see Visual Basic.NET in the flesh, I realize it was a pipedream
    > to believe we could have the old VB with a few new features. Things have
    > gone too far. The original VB was one of the coolest hacks in history, but
    > still a hack.
    > **************
    > --
    > Jonathan Allen
    >
    >
    > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    > news:3a8ad496@news.devx.com...
    > > Hi Folks --
    > >
    > > Y'all seemed most interested in Bruce's earlier takes on VB and VFred.

    > Thought you'd
    > > like to know he's finished compiling some more thoughts on the latter.

    > You can find
    > > them linked from his Hardcore page:
    > >
    > > http://www.pobox.com/HardcoreVB
    > >
    > > Classic Bruce, be warned! You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll scream with

    > terror!!! :-)
    > >
    > > Enjoy... Karl
    > > --
    > > http://www.mvps.org/vb/rants/vfred.htm
    > >
    > >

    >
    >




  14. #14
    John Proffitt Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...


    "Jason Bock" <jrbock@nospam.execpc.com> wrote:
    >> Does it matter?

    >I guess I just don't get why anyone cares about what anyone else is and/or
    >will use for their development tools. As one of my favorite sayings goes,
    >"Calm down. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros." I don't think .NET or
    >Java or Eiffel or (put tool/language here) has changed that. They all do
    >the same thing (more or less, I'm generalizing here) at the end of the day.
    >


    I think what we're trying to find out is whether they do it well or badly.


  15. #15
    Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster Guest

    Re: Bruce McKinney finishes his thoughts...

    "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message <news:3a8b24e2@news.devx.com>...

    > I think these two paragraphs sum up the reasons behind a lot of the
    > arguments on this newsgroup.
    >
    > **********
    > I asked for a class library, but I assumed they would put it on top of the
    > existing system, not make it the foundation of a new one. I asked for
    > inheritance, but I assumed I would be the one to use it, not them. I asked
    > for procedure variables, but for my own use, not as the basis of a new event
    > model. I asked for language changes, but not for a whole new language.
    >
    > Now that I see Visual Basic.NET in the flesh, I realize it was a pipedream
    > to believe we could have the old VB with a few new features. Things have
    > gone too far. The original VB was one of the coolest hacks in history, but
    > still a hack.
    > **************


    Could they have dehacked VB but added optional compatibility hacks
    back in on top of the new stuff? It would even be OK for old code
    to be run through a converter, perhaps to turn calls to Open, Print,
    and other things with funky syntax, into calls to compatibility
    components imported like anything else.

    --
    Joe Foster <mailto:jfoster@ricochet.net> Space Cooties! <http://www.xenu.net/>
    WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
    because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!



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