Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


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Thread: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?

  1. #1
    max caber Guest

    Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    I am not 100% sold on WebForms. Don't get me wrong, I have found them to
    be a reliable and efficient way to produce both HTML (client) and Server
    side code. I see them as a way to "hide the developer" from HTML and HTTP,
    and let the developer use an easier, "VB Like Programming Model". In other
    words, if you have experience with VB Forms, and know nothing about HTTP/HTML
    you can come up to speed on web applications real quick. For exapmle, it
    was a no brainer to create an app that used an <input type=file> and save
    the POSTed file to an SQL DB.

    So what is my problem? 1.I already know HTTP/HTML so it does not same "me"
    that much time and now I have to learn this new "Web Form API", although
    it is a better API then HTTP/HTML. 2.If I get used to "Web Forms" I could
    forget HTTP/HTML and then be "locked in to MS". In other words, it is tempting
    me to leave an "open standard" for a "vendor specific API"
    Your thoughts,
    Max

  2. #2
    Russell Jones Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?

    You don't have to use the conveniences--all the HTML controls are still
    there, and you can use the Page_Load method and the Response, Request, etc.
    objects just as with classic ASP to process all the request and response
    data. So any time you feel in danger of forgetting HTML, just don't use
    server controls. In my opinion, although its easy to forget the _syntax_ of
    a technology you've mastered, it's much less likely that you'll forget what
    it _does_. And if necessary, you can reaquire the syntax relatively easily.
    So there's no lock-in here other than developer convenience.

    With that said, you're right to be skeptical of Web Forms--their convenience
    comes at a price in server resources and network bandwidth, because the
    server controls' EnableViewState is on by default. Make sure you turn off
    ViewState for all controls for which you don't need to maintain page state,
    and use HTML controls rather than server controls except when you need the
    added convenience.

    "max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3c368e6e$1@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > I am not 100% sold on WebForms. Don't get me wrong, I have found them to
    > be a reliable and efficient way to produce both HTML (client) and Server
    > side code. I see them as a way to "hide the developer" from HTML and

    HTTP,
    > and let the developer use an easier, "VB Like Programming Model". In

    other
    > words, if you have experience with VB Forms, and know nothing about

    HTTP/HTML
    > you can come up to speed on web applications real quick. For exapmle, it
    > was a no brainer to create an app that used an <input type=file> and save
    > the POSTed file to an SQL DB.
    >
    > So what is my problem? 1.I already know HTTP/HTML so it does not same

    "me"
    > that much time and now I have to learn this new "Web Form API", although
    > it is a better API then HTTP/HTML. 2.If I get used to "Web Forms" I could
    > forget HTTP/HTML and then be "locked in to MS". In other words, it is

    tempting
    > me to leave an "open standard" for a "vendor specific API"
    > Your thoughts,
    > Max




  3. #3
    max caber Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    "Russell Jones" <arj1@northstate.net> wrote:
    "their convenience
    comes at a price in server resources and network bandwidth, because the
    server controls' EnableViewState is on by default. Make sure you turn off
    ViewState for all controls for which you don't need to maintain page state,
    and use HTML controls rather than server controls except when you need the
    added convenience."

    I doubt that passing a controls state back and forth is going to create a
    performace bottleneck. A control's state usualy contains a few chars at
    8 bits a char, while most web pages contain multiple 40KB - 100KB .JPG's.
    But I agree that it is strange that the default setting is true, because
    most users expect a forms fields to be cleared after the data is posted.


  4. #4
    Russell Jones Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    "max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3c37948c@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > I doubt that passing a controls state back and forth is going to create a
    > performace bottleneck. A control's state usualy contains a few chars at
    > 8 bits a char, while most web pages contain multiple 40KB - 100KB .JPG's.
    > But I agree that it is strange that the default setting is true, because
    > most users expect a forms fields to be cleared after the data is posted.
    >

    LOL.
    Obviously, you haven't looked at ViewState for Table, DataGrid and List
    controls.



  5. #5
    Michael Culley Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?

    Max,

    you forgot to mention that they will most likely not work as well with
    netscape

    --
    Michael Culley
    www.vbdotcom.com


    "max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3c368e6e$1@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > I am not 100% sold on WebForms. Don't get me wrong, I have found them to
    > be a reliable and efficient way to produce both HTML (client) and Server
    > side code. I see them as a way to "hide the developer" from HTML and

    HTTP,
    > and let the developer use an easier, "VB Like Programming Model". In

    other
    > words, if you have experience with VB Forms, and know nothing about

    HTTP/HTML
    > you can come up to speed on web applications real quick. For exapmle, it
    > was a no brainer to create an app that used an <input type=file> and save
    > the POSTed file to an SQL DB.
    >
    > So what is my problem? 1.I already know HTTP/HTML so it does not same

    "me"
    > that much time and now I have to learn this new "Web Form API", although
    > it is a better API then HTTP/HTML. 2.If I get used to "Web Forms" I could
    > forget HTTP/HTML and then be "locked in to MS". In other words, it is

    tempting
    > me to leave an "open standard" for a "vendor specific API"
    > Your thoughts,
    > Max




  6. #6
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?



    The "cute" features of webforms work best with IE5+, but you can specifically
    target IE/Netscape 4.0 with webforms (by just changing a property). As you
    might suspect, you lose some of the goodies. However, from the perspective
    of a developer/user who doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes, most
    things will "work" similarly, they'll just use different mechanisms.

    To be honest, there are some features in web forms that make me think of
    old data-binding, and I'm likely to be very picky about what webforms features
    I'm likely to use. At a higher level, the webforms model is a definite improvement
    over old-school ASP.

    -Rob

    "Michael Culley" <mike@vbdotcom.com> wrote:
    >Max,
    >
    >you forgot to mention that they will most likely not work as well with
    >netscape
    >
    >--
    >Michael Culley
    >www.vbdotcom.com




  7. #7
    Ian Oliver Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    The MS Web controls automatically scale their output to downlevel browsers.
    This means that less capable browsers will have to post-back more frequently.
    When running with IE, the control can spit out JScript to provide more client-side
    functionality and reduce the number of client-server round-trips. Netscape
    is not locked out. These controls will work with any HTML 3.2 client (possibly
    going back further, but I am not sure).

    If you bake your own controls, you can test the browser and push the appropriate
    content.

    "Michael Culley" <mike@vbdotcom.com> wrote:
    >Max,
    >
    >you forgot to mention that they will most likely not work as well with
    >netscape
    >
    >--
    >Michael Culley
    >www.vbdotcom.com
    >
    >
    >"max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >news:3c368e6e$1@147.208.176.211...
    >>
    >> I am not 100% sold on WebForms. Don't get me wrong, I have found them

    to
    >> be a reliable and efficient way to produce both HTML (client) and Server
    >> side code. I see them as a way to "hide the developer" from HTML and

    >HTTP,
    >> and let the developer use an easier, "VB Like Programming Model". In

    >other
    >> words, if you have experience with VB Forms, and know nothing about

    >HTTP/HTML
    >> you can come up to speed on web applications real quick. For exapmle,

    it
    >> was a no brainer to create an app that used an <input type=file> and save
    >> the POSTed file to an SQL DB.
    >>
    >> So what is my problem? 1.I already know HTTP/HTML so it does not same

    >"me"
    >> that much time and now I have to learn this new "Web Form API", although
    >> it is a better API then HTTP/HTML. 2.If I get used to "Web Forms" I could
    >> forget HTTP/HTML and then be "locked in to MS". In other words, it is

    >tempting
    >> me to leave an "open standard" for a "vendor specific API"
    >> Your thoughts,
    >> Max

    >
    >



  8. #8
    Greg Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    Are people actually still developing for Netscape? Last time I checked the
    percentage of Netscape users in the browser market was about 5%, now I raise
    the serious question once again whether is it worth taking a 5% browser market
    into account when doing developments?

    Greg


    >>
    >>you forgot to mention that they will most likely not work as well with
    >>netscape



  9. #9
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    People are still using browsers to house/deploy applications? Last time
    I checked, the move was away from browsers.

    "Greg" <greg@i-online.co.za> wrote:
    >
    >Are people actually still developing for Netscape? Last time I checked the
    >percentage of Netscape users in the browser market was about 5%, now I raise
    >the serious question once again whether is it worth taking a 5% browser

    market
    >into account when doing developments?
    >
    >Greg
    >
    >
    >>>
    >>>you forgot to mention that they will most likely not work as well with
    >>>netscape

    >



  10. #10
    David A. Rothgery Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?

    Greg <greg@i-online.co.za> wrote:
    >
    > Are people actually still developing for Netscape? Last time I checked the
    > percentage of Netscape users in the browser market was about 5%, now I raise
    > the serious question once again whether is it worth taking a 5% browser market
    > into account when doing developments?


    More like 10%. But that's an average. The web site I develop for has far
    more Mac users than average (because a major customer uses Macs
    exclusively), and slightly more Netscape users than average. And even
    though they're using Windows machines or Macs, and so can and should use
    IE, I can't exactly tell paying customers to get a better browser.

    --
    Dave Rothgery
    Picking nits since 1976
    drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
    http://drothgery.editthispage.com

  11. #11
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    Have you tried to get them to use Opera? Oh, you mean IE is the better
    browser!

    David A. Rothgery <drothgery@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
    >Greg <greg@i-online.co.za> wrote:
    >>
    >> Are people actually still developing for Netscape? Last time I checked

    the
    >> percentage of Netscape users in the browser market was about 5%, now I

    raise
    >> the serious question once again whether is it worth taking a 5% browser

    market
    >> into account when doing developments?

    >
    >More like 10%. But that's an average. The web site I develop for has far


    >more Mac users than average (because a major customer uses Macs
    >exclusively), and slightly more Netscape users than average. And even
    >though they're using Windows machines or Macs, and so can and should use


    >IE, I can't exactly tell paying customers to get a better browser.
    >
    >--
    >Dave Rothgery
    >Picking nits since 1976
    >drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
    >http://drothgery.editthispage.com



  12. #12
    Markn Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    Bob <rainsleyno@bodyspamsolutions.com> wrote:
    >In article <3c3d3fea$1@147.208.176.211>, greg@i-online.co.za says...
    >>
    >> Are people actually still developing for Netscape? Last time I checked

    the
    >> percentage of Netscape users in the browser market was about 5%, now I

    raise
    >> the serious question once again whether is it worth taking a 5% browser

    market
    >> into account when doing developments?
    >>
    >> Greg
    >>

    >Well, approximately 28% of the browsers that hit my employer's web site

    are
    >Netscape and I don't think my employer is willing to just toss away 28%

    of
    >his potential customers.
    >
    >Bob


    According to most of the posters here the majority, Window's PC users, rules
    [the world of all computers - PC or not]. So you should forgo those extra
    bucks.




  13. #13
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    "David Rothgery" <drothgery@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
    >
    >"Markn" <mnuttall@nospam.com> wrote in message
    >news:3c3da9e3@147.208.176.211...
    >> According to most of the posters here the majority, Window's PC users,

    >rules
    >> [the world of all computers - PC or not]. So you should forgo those extra
    >> bucks.

    >
    >I think that you'd find that either
    >1) A very large percentage of Bob's Netscape users are using Windows, and

    a
    >very large percentage of the rest are using Macs.
    >OR
    >2) Bob's employer's site targets a niche market where there a lot of Unix
    >users.
    >
    >
    >--
    >Dave Rothgery
    >david_rothgery@stratagene.com
    >
    >
    >


    Today, probably. So if they are using Windows or Macs, they should be using
    IE because it is available/installed?


  14. #14
    Bob Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?

    In article <3c3d3fea$1@147.208.176.211>, greg@i-online.co.za says...
    >
    > Are people actually still developing for Netscape? Last time I checked the
    > percentage of Netscape users in the browser market was about 5%, now I raise
    > the serious question once again whether is it worth taking a 5% browser market
    > into account when doing developments?
    >
    > Greg
    >

    Well, approximately 28% of the browsers that hit my employer's web site are
    Netscape and I don't think my employer is willing to just toss away 28% of
    his potential customers.

    Bob

  15. #15
    David Rothgery Guest

    Re: Web Forms, Are they good or bad?


    "Markn" <mnuttall@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:3c3da9e3@147.208.176.211...
    > According to most of the posters here the majority, Window's PC users,

    rules
    > [the world of all computers - PC or not]. So you should forgo those extra
    > bucks.


    I think that you'd find that either
    1) A very large percentage of Bob's Netscape users are using Windows, and a
    very large percentage of the rest are using Macs.
    OR
    2) Bob's employer's site targets a niche market where there a lot of Unix
    users.


    --
    Dave Rothgery
    david_rothgery@stratagene.com




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