Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

[Rick Golek]

I only wanted something to learn and evaluate VB.Net and didn't want to
spend a bundle on the whole VS.Net Pro. I could care less about C# and C++.
So I tried looking on the MS web site to see which edition, but there's
almost no information there on the Standard edition. They make it seem like
Standard is just an individual language subset of VS.Net Pro:

"Visual Studio .NET is available in four editions: Professional,
Enterprise Developer, Enterprise Architect, and Academic.
The core languages included with Visual Studio - Visual Basic
.NET, Visual C++ .NET, and Visual C# .NET - are each
also offered in separate standard editions."

I only wanted VB so that was fine with me.

I went to Staples and found it on the shelf. The back of the box seemed to
confirm that all the features I wanted to know about were there, like the
upgrade wizard and creating controls, etc. so I grabbed it. After I got it
home and read closer, though, I found out the features listed on the back of
the box are just what I could have if I bought Professional instead (!!!).
More of Microsoft infamous marketing.

Missing features in VB.Not Standard over Professional (from list on back of
box, may be more!):
Mobile Web Forms
Visual XML Designer
Visual Database tools
Server Explorer
VB6 Upgrade Wizard
Ability to create controls, class libraries, services
Crystal Reports
VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder

Add to that all the things VB.NET can't do that VB6 did, and there's really
have nothing left. Maybe use Standard to create simple ASP.Net pages, but
that's about all it's good for. I got much more from the free java ide I
downloaded from Sun's site.

At first I laughed at the ".NOT'ers" saying how VB was dead (how naive I
was) but now I have that little tingling feeling down the spine about it. Is
this another way Microsoft's is trying to force VB users into C#? You can't
buy VB.NET in any usable form without getting C# forced upon you? It may be
true that VB is on the way out.

[William Schnitzer, MCSD]

There are a bunch of posts to the newsgroups about this. I think that it is
time for Microsoft to post a specific clarification of this issue on their
site (in addition to the "Standard Edition Features" page).

I would guess that Microsoft's angle on this would be that there is more
of a blur between the specific languages in .Net then there was in previous
VS versions with the advent of the Common Language Runtime, so there is no
reason in their mindset to own a truly "Professional" edition of any of the
individual tools. For example, the Visual Interdev elements are not even
considered separate tools in VS .Net.

Therefore they are marketing the Standard Editions as Learning Editions and
nothing more.

The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart enough
to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
price is not too prohibitive IMHO.


"Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>I only wanted something to learn and evaluate VB.Net and didn't want to
>spend a bundle on the whole VS.Net Pro. I could care less about C# and C++.
>So I tried looking on the MS web site to see which edition, but there's
>almost no information there on the Standard edition. They make it seem like
>Standard is just an individual language subset of VS.Net Pro:
>
> "Visual Studio .NET is available in four editions: Professional,
> Enterprise Developer, Enterprise Architect, and Academic.
> The core languages included with Visual Studio - Visual Basic
> .NET, Visual C++ .NET, and Visual C# .NET - are each
> also offered in separate standard editions."
>
>I only wanted VB so that was fine with me.
>
>I went to Staples and found it on the shelf. The back of the box seemed
to
>confirm that all the features I wanted to know about were there, like the
>upgrade wizard and creating controls, etc. so I grabbed it. After I got
it
>home and read closer, though, I found out the features listed on the back
of
>the box are just what I could have if I bought Professional instead (!!!).
>More of Microsoft infamous marketing.
>
>Missing features in VB.Not Standard over Professional (from list on back
of
>box, may be more!):
>Mobile Web Forms
>Visual XML Designer
>Visual Database tools
>Server Explorer
>VB6 Upgrade Wizard
>Ability to create controls, class libraries, services
>Crystal Reports
>VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder
>
>Add to that all the things VB.NET can't do that VB6 did, and there's really
>have nothing left. Maybe use Standard to create simple ASP.Net pages, but
>that's about all it's good for. I got much more from the free java ide I
>downloaded from Sun's site.
>
>At first I laughed at the ".NOT'ers" saying how VB was dead (how naive I
>was) but now I have that little tingling feeling down the spine about it.
Is
>this another way Microsoft's is trying to force VB users into C#? You can't
>buy VB.NET in any usable form without getting C# forced upon you? It may
be
>true that VB is on the way out.
>
>
>
>
>

[Robert Lantry]

Uh, not to be rude or anything Rick, but have you ever bought standard edition
of anything? Even borland products? They suck. I've never really figured
out who they market these "slightly" cheaper versions to.

By the way, the .Net framework is intact and despite what's missing in the
IDE you may have bought, you can still build anything you darned well feel
like it. The framework isn't crippled...they just didn't give you all the
apps that ship with professional. VB isn't crippled in any way. You can
create controls and class libraries and all the other little goodies....in
notepad.



"Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>I only wanted something to learn and evaluate VB.Net and didn't want to
>spend a bundle on the whole VS.Net Pro. I could care less about C# and C++.
>So I tried looking on the MS web site to see which edition, but there's
>almost no information there on the Standard edition. They make it seem like
>Standard is just an individual language subset of VS.Net Pro:
>
> "Visual Studio .NET is available in four editions: Professional,
> Enterprise Developer, Enterprise Architect, and Academic.
> The core languages included with Visual Studio - Visual Basic
> .NET, Visual C++ .NET, and Visual C# .NET - are each
> also offered in separate standard editions."
>
>I only wanted VB so that was fine with me.
>
>I went to Staples and found it on the shelf. The back of the box seemed
to
>confirm that all the features I wanted to know about were there, like the
>upgrade wizard and creating controls, etc. so I grabbed it. After I got
it
>home and read closer, though, I found out the features listed on the back
of
>the box are just what I could have if I bought Professional instead (!!!).
>More of Microsoft infamous marketing.
>
>Missing features in VB.Not Standard over Professional (from list on back
of
>box, may be more!):
>Mobile Web Forms
>Visual XML Designer
>Visual Database tools
>Server Explorer
>VB6 Upgrade Wizard
>Ability to create controls, class libraries, services
>Crystal Reports
>VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder
>
>Add to that all the things VB.NET can't do that VB6 did, and there's really
>have nothing left. Maybe use Standard to create simple ASP.Net pages, but
>that's about all it's good for. I got much more from the free java ide I
>downloaded from Sun's site.
>
>At first I laughed at the ".NOT'ers" saying how VB was dead (how naive I
>was) but now I have that little tingling feeling down the spine about it.
Is
>this another way Microsoft's is trying to force VB users into C#? You can't
>buy VB.NET in any usable form without getting C# forced upon you? It may
be
>true that VB is on the way out.
>
>
>
>
>

[Robert Lantry]

Wow...can't make classes...that's totally bizarre.

Actually...I can't grok what your saying...you make classes everywhere...in
fact, if you look, your forms are classes...Create a form. At the bottom
say, after all the generated code type:

Class Foo

End Class

There isn't any reason why, even in that edition, that shoulding work...Everything
in VB is a class now.




"Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>"Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
>news:3c793df1$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> Uh, not to be rude or anything Rick, but have you ever bought standard
>edition
>> of anything? Even borland products? They suck. I've never really
>figured
>> out who they market these "slightly" cheaper versions to.
>
>Not to be rude back but yes, I have bought "standard" (or "Learning")
>editions. I've generally found them quite useful to learn with.
>
>The VB6 upgrade wizard is probably the best tool for a VB6 user trying to
>grasp VB.NET initially, and it's not there in Standard. Limit it to 1 form
>or class, fine, I'd be OK with that.
>
>Learn inheritance without being able to make controls or class libraries?
I
>can understand if they don't include Visual Database Tools, Crystal Reports,
>and all the "extras". But "Standard" to me means you can create a class
>library! The Control Creation Edition was free in the past for goodness
>sake.
>
>At least don't put the missing features as the largest block of text on
the
>back of the box, just under a large picture of the IDE, then title it
>"Expand your programming possibilities with ...[list of features]"
>
>Rick
>
>

[Rick Golek]

"Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
news:3c793df1$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> Uh, not to be rude or anything Rick, but have you ever bought standard
edition
> of anything? Even borland products? They suck. I've never really
figured
> out who they market these "slightly" cheaper versions to.

Not to be rude back but yes, I have bought "standard" (or "Learning")
editions. I've generally found them quite useful to learn with.

The VB6 upgrade wizard is probably the best tool for a VB6 user trying to
grasp VB.NET initially, and it's not there in Standard. Limit it to 1 form
or class, fine, I'd be OK with that.

Learn inheritance without being able to make controls or class libraries? I
can understand if they don't include Visual Database Tools, Crystal Reports,
and all the "extras". But "Standard" to me means you can create a class
library! The Control Creation Edition was free in the past for goodness
sake.

At least don't put the missing features as the largest block of text on the
back of the box, just under a large picture of the IDE, then title it
"Expand your programming possibilities with ...[list of features]"

Rick

[Rick Golek]

"William Schnitzer, MCSD" <alvisdontspam@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:3c793dc4$1@10.1.10.29...

> Therefore they are marketing the Standard Editions as Learning Editions
and
> nothing more.

See my response to Robert for why Standard <> Learning.

> The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart
enough
> to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
> price is not too prohibitive IMHO.

$500 isn't much for something to learn with? I can go to
http://www.borland.com and dowload a FREE copy of JBuilder Personal, Delphi
Personal, or Kylix Open Edition. I can go to http://java.sun.com and downoad
a FREE copy of Forte Community Edition. Yet I must go to the store and BUY a
copy of VB.NET Standard only to find it is just Crippleware compared to the
previous mentioned?

[Rick Golek]

"Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
news:3c79443c$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> Wow...can't make classes...that's totally bizarre.

No, you must have read my message as well as I read the VB.NET box. I said
"class library", as in DLL project. If you want to build a .dll and access
it from an .exe, can't do that in the Standard IDE. Pure foolishness when
the best and most touted new feature of VB.NET is its OOP capabilities.
Before you say it, yes I do know creating a separate library isn't necessary
to use those features, but it does severely inhibit the utility even for a
learning exercise. I really wanted to see how "visual inheritance" worked
with controls. Nope, can't do that either. That is bizarre.

Rick

[Robert Lantry]

Okay...so..just make 'em in notepad and compile at the command prompt..?
It can't stop you from doing that.



"Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>"Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
>news:3c79443c$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> Wow...can't make classes...that's totally bizarre.
>
>No, you must have read my message as well as I read the VB.NET box. I said
>"class library", as in DLL project. If you want to build a .dll and access
>it from an .exe, can't do that in the Standard IDE. Pure foolishness when
>the best and most touted new feature of VB.NET is its OOP capabilities.
>Before you say it, yes I do know creating a separate library isn't necessary
>to use those features, but it does severely inhibit the utility even for
a
>learning exercise. I really wanted to see how "visual inheritance" worked
>with controls. Nope, can't do that either. That is bizarre.
>
>Rick
>
>

[Robert Lantry]

I just tried creating one....and yup, I think you're right.

"Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:
> > Actually...I can't grok what your saying...you make classes
> > everywhere...in fact, if you look, your forms are classes.
>
>Robert: "Class Library" is a specific project type in VS.NET. To be honest,
>I haven't created one yet so I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I imagine
>it's the .NET equivalent of an ActiveX DLL in VB6.
>---
>Phil Weber
>
>

[Phil Weber]

> Actually...I can't grok what your saying...you make classes
> everywhere...in fact, if you look, your forms are classes.

Robert: "Class Library" is a specific project type in VS.NET. To be honest,
I haven't created one yet so I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I imagine
it's the .NET equivalent of an ActiveX DLL in VB6.
---
Phil Weber

[Cali LaFollett]

> I haven't created one yet so I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I
imagine
> it's the .NET equivalent of an ActiveX DLL in VB6.

Correct...

Cal

[Kunle Odutola]

"Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:3c7944db$1@10.1.10.29...

> > The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart
> enough
> > to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
> > price is not too prohibitive IMHO.
>
> $500 isn't much for something to learn with? I can go to
> http://www.borland.com and dowload a FREE copy of JBuilder Personal,
Delphi
> Personal, or Kylix Open Edition. I can go to http://java.sun.com and
downoad
> a FREE copy of Forte Community Edition. Yet I must go to the store and BUY
a
> copy of VB.NET Standard only to find it is just Crippleware compared to
the
> previous mentioned?

Rick,

Do any of these products have all of these (or equivalents):
- Mobile Web Forms
- Visual XML Designer
- Visual Database tools
- Server Explorer
- Crystal Reports
- VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder

I am not sure what I think about the omission of the VB6 Upgrade Wizard from
the Standard edition. I suspect I don't think it is a big deal at all. As
another poster has pointed out, all editions of VS.NET have the ability to
create controls, class libraries, services. I could do all that in Notepad!.

Kunle

[Rick Golek]

"Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
message news:3c794912@10.1.10.29...

> Do any of these products have all of these (or equivalents):
> - Mobile Web Forms
> - Visual XML Designer
> - Visual Database tools
> - Server Explorer
> - Crystal Reports
> - VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder

Basically yes, didn't you read what I wrote before? I didn't spend money on
those products, though, so I don't have the right to complain if they had
them or not. The fact that I did spend money on crippleware VB.NET compared
to those rather complete, free IDEs is disturbing. I don't need the fluff
listed above, just the ability to do the "core" language things, like create
a visual control, would be enough for me to feel I got my money's worth.

> I am not sure what I think about the omission of the VB6 Upgrade Wizard
from
> the Standard edition. I suspect I don't think it is a big deal at all. As
> another poster has pointed out, all editions of VS.NET have the ability to
> create controls, class libraries, services. I could do all that in
Notepad!.

Having the ability to see some code you've personally written translated to
VB.NET is an invaluable aide to learning. Something that is touted as an
"upgrade" should at least have an "upgrade" capability! Crippled capability
of doing only one form would have been enough. Just one, is that asking too
much?

[Kevin Young]

"William Schnitzer, MCSD" <alvisdontspam@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:3c793dc4$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart
enough
> to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
> price is not too prohibitive IMHO.
>
The advertisement says nothing about saving your box from VS6 to qualify for
the mail-in rebate, simply that you must be a registered owner of:
Visual Basic 6.0 Pro or Enterprise or many of the other VS6 Pro or
enterprise versions of software. As for the price, In my opinion it is a
bargain!

[William Schnitzer, MCSD]

I agree and that is why I think Microsoft should address this issue somewhere.
It seems to me to be shady marketing by them to call something a "Standard"
edition when it has far fewer features than previous "Standard" editions
of their software.

And I didn't say that $500 wasn't much, I said it wasn't too prohibitive
to me. $500 is a lot of money just to learn something but so is $10,000+
for a training class or $50,000 for a college degree.

Even if you throw in a few a couple of dollars more for some books, the total
cost seems reasonable. Especially when you add in whatever value it adds
to your skillsets as a programmer.

Given the history of the company, I would not expect Microsoft of all companies
to give anything away free or cheap without a hitch. I'll settle for them
at least having what I consider to be reasonable prices, but blurring the
lines between Standard and Learning editions is something that upsets me
as much as it does anyone else.

"Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>"William Schnitzer, MCSD" <alvisdontspam@monmouth.com> wrote in message
>news:3c793dc4$1@10.1.10.29...
>
>> Therefore they are marketing the Standard Editions as Learning Editions
>and
>> nothing more.
>
>See my response to Robert for why Standard <> Learning.
>
>> The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart
>enough
>> to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
>> price is not too prohibitive IMHO.
>
>$500 isn't much for something to learn with? I can go to
>http://www.borland.com and dowload a FREE copy of JBuilder Personal, Delphi
>Personal, or Kylix Open Edition. I can go to http://java.sun.com and downoad
>a FREE copy of Forte Community Edition. Yet I must go to the store and BUY
a
>copy of VB.NET Standard only to find it is just Crippleware compared to
the
>previous mentioned?
>
>
>