Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


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Thread: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

  1. #1
    Rick Golek Guest

    Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

    I only wanted something to learn and evaluate VB.Net and didn't want to
    spend a bundle on the whole VS.Net Pro. I could care less about C# and C++.
    So I tried looking on the MS web site to see which edition, but there's
    almost no information there on the Standard edition. They make it seem like
    Standard is just an individual language subset of VS.Net Pro:

    "Visual Studio .NET is available in four editions: Professional,
    Enterprise Developer, Enterprise Architect, and Academic.
    The core languages included with Visual Studio - Visual Basic
    .NET, Visual C++ .NET, and Visual C# .NET - are each
    also offered in separate standard editions."

    I only wanted VB so that was fine with me.

    I went to Staples and found it on the shelf. The back of the box seemed to
    confirm that all the features I wanted to know about were there, like the
    upgrade wizard and creating controls, etc. so I grabbed it. After I got it
    home and read closer, though, I found out the features listed on the back of
    the box are just what I could have if I bought Professional instead (!!!).
    More of Microsoft infamous marketing.

    Missing features in VB.Not Standard over Professional (from list on back of
    box, may be more!):
    Mobile Web Forms
    Visual XML Designer
    Visual Database tools
    Server Explorer
    VB6 Upgrade Wizard
    Ability to create controls, class libraries, services
    Crystal Reports
    VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder

    Add to that all the things VB.NET can't do that VB6 did, and there's really
    have nothing left. Maybe use Standard to create simple ASP.Net pages, but
    that's about all it's good for. I got much more from the free java ide I
    downloaded from Sun's site.

    At first I laughed at the ".NOT'ers" saying how VB was dead (how naive I
    was) but now I have that little tingling feeling down the spine about it. Is
    this another way Microsoft's is trying to force VB users into C#? You can't
    buy VB.NET in any usable form without getting C# forced upon you? It may be
    true that VB is on the way out.






  2. #2
    William Schnitzer, MCSD Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    There are a bunch of posts to the newsgroups about this. I think that it is
    time for Microsoft to post a specific clarification of this issue on their
    site (in addition to the "Standard Edition Features" page).

    I would guess that Microsoft's angle on this would be that there is more
    of a blur between the specific languages in .Net then there was in previous
    VS versions with the advent of the Common Language Runtime, so there is no
    reason in their mindset to own a truly "Professional" edition of any of the
    individual tools. For example, the Visual Interdev elements are not even
    considered separate tools in VS .Net.

    Therefore they are marketing the Standard Editions as Learning Editions and
    nothing more.

    The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart enough
    to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
    price is not too prohibitive IMHO.


    "Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
    >I only wanted something to learn and evaluate VB.Net and didn't want to
    >spend a bundle on the whole VS.Net Pro. I could care less about C# and C++.
    >So I tried looking on the MS web site to see which edition, but there's
    >almost no information there on the Standard edition. They make it seem like
    >Standard is just an individual language subset of VS.Net Pro:
    >
    > "Visual Studio .NET is available in four editions: Professional,
    > Enterprise Developer, Enterprise Architect, and Academic.
    > The core languages included with Visual Studio - Visual Basic
    > .NET, Visual C++ .NET, and Visual C# .NET - are each
    > also offered in separate standard editions."
    >
    >I only wanted VB so that was fine with me.
    >
    >I went to Staples and found it on the shelf. The back of the box seemed

    to
    >confirm that all the features I wanted to know about were there, like the
    >upgrade wizard and creating controls, etc. so I grabbed it. After I got

    it
    >home and read closer, though, I found out the features listed on the back

    of
    >the box are just what I could have if I bought Professional instead (!!!).
    >More of Microsoft infamous marketing.
    >
    >Missing features in VB.Not Standard over Professional (from list on back

    of
    >box, may be more!):
    >Mobile Web Forms
    >Visual XML Designer
    >Visual Database tools
    >Server Explorer
    >VB6 Upgrade Wizard
    >Ability to create controls, class libraries, services
    >Crystal Reports
    >VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder
    >
    >Add to that all the things VB.NET can't do that VB6 did, and there's really
    >have nothing left. Maybe use Standard to create simple ASP.Net pages, but
    >that's about all it's good for. I got much more from the free java ide I
    >downloaded from Sun's site.
    >
    >At first I laughed at the ".NOT'ers" saying how VB was dead (how naive I
    >was) but now I have that little tingling feeling down the spine about it.

    Is
    >this another way Microsoft's is trying to force VB users into C#? You can't
    >buy VB.NET in any usable form without getting C# forced upon you? It may

    be
    >true that VB is on the way out.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



  3. #3
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    Uh, not to be rude or anything Rick, but have you ever bought standard edition
    of anything? Even borland products? They suck. I've never really figured
    out who they market these "slightly" cheaper versions to.

    By the way, the .Net framework is intact and despite what's missing in the
    IDE you may have bought, you can still build anything you darned well feel
    like it. The framework isn't crippled...they just didn't give you all the
    apps that ship with professional. VB isn't crippled in any way. You can
    create controls and class libraries and all the other little goodies....in
    notepad.



    "Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
    >I only wanted something to learn and evaluate VB.Net and didn't want to
    >spend a bundle on the whole VS.Net Pro. I could care less about C# and C++.
    >So I tried looking on the MS web site to see which edition, but there's
    >almost no information there on the Standard edition. They make it seem like
    >Standard is just an individual language subset of VS.Net Pro:
    >
    > "Visual Studio .NET is available in four editions: Professional,
    > Enterprise Developer, Enterprise Architect, and Academic.
    > The core languages included with Visual Studio - Visual Basic
    > .NET, Visual C++ .NET, and Visual C# .NET - are each
    > also offered in separate standard editions."
    >
    >I only wanted VB so that was fine with me.
    >
    >I went to Staples and found it on the shelf. The back of the box seemed

    to
    >confirm that all the features I wanted to know about were there, like the
    >upgrade wizard and creating controls, etc. so I grabbed it. After I got

    it
    >home and read closer, though, I found out the features listed on the back

    of
    >the box are just what I could have if I bought Professional instead (!!!).
    >More of Microsoft infamous marketing.
    >
    >Missing features in VB.Not Standard over Professional (from list on back

    of
    >box, may be more!):
    >Mobile Web Forms
    >Visual XML Designer
    >Visual Database tools
    >Server Explorer
    >VB6 Upgrade Wizard
    >Ability to create controls, class libraries, services
    >Crystal Reports
    >VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder
    >
    >Add to that all the things VB.NET can't do that VB6 did, and there's really
    >have nothing left. Maybe use Standard to create simple ASP.Net pages, but
    >that's about all it's good for. I got much more from the free java ide I
    >downloaded from Sun's site.
    >
    >At first I laughed at the ".NOT'ers" saying how VB was dead (how naive I
    >was) but now I have that little tingling feeling down the spine about it.

    Is
    >this another way Microsoft's is trying to force VB users into C#? You can't
    >buy VB.NET in any usable form without getting C# forced upon you? It may

    be
    >true that VB is on the way out.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



  4. #4
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    Wow...can't make classes...that's totally bizarre.

    Actually...I can't grok what your saying...you make classes everywhere...in
    fact, if you look, your forms are classes...Create a form. At the bottom
    say, after all the generated code type:

    Class Foo

    End Class

    There isn't any reason why, even in that edition, that shoulding work...Everything
    in VB is a class now.




    "Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
    >"Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
    >news:3c793df1$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> Uh, not to be rude or anything Rick, but have you ever bought standard

    >edition
    >> of anything? Even borland products? They suck. I've never really

    >figured
    >> out who they market these "slightly" cheaper versions to.

    >
    >Not to be rude back but yes, I have bought "standard" (or "Learning")
    >editions. I've generally found them quite useful to learn with.
    >
    >The VB6 upgrade wizard is probably the best tool for a VB6 user trying to
    >grasp VB.NET initially, and it's not there in Standard. Limit it to 1 form
    >or class, fine, I'd be OK with that.
    >
    >Learn inheritance without being able to make controls or class libraries?

    I
    >can understand if they don't include Visual Database Tools, Crystal Reports,
    >and all the "extras". But "Standard" to me means you can create a class
    >library! The Control Creation Edition was free in the past for goodness
    >sake.
    >
    >At least don't put the missing features as the largest block of text on

    the
    >back of the box, just under a large picture of the IDE, then title it
    >"Expand your programming possibilities with ... [list of features]"
    >
    >Rick
    >
    >



  5. #5
    Rick Golek Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

    "Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
    news:3c793df1$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Uh, not to be rude or anything Rick, but have you ever bought standard

    edition
    > of anything? Even borland products? They suck. I've never really

    figured
    > out who they market these "slightly" cheaper versions to.


    Not to be rude back but yes, I have bought "standard" (or "Learning")
    editions. I've generally found them quite useful to learn with.

    The VB6 upgrade wizard is probably the best tool for a VB6 user trying to
    grasp VB.NET initially, and it's not there in Standard. Limit it to 1 form
    or class, fine, I'd be OK with that.

    Learn inheritance without being able to make controls or class libraries? I
    can understand if they don't include Visual Database Tools, Crystal Reports,
    and all the "extras". But "Standard" to me means you can create a class
    library! The Control Creation Edition was free in the past for goodness
    sake.

    At least don't put the missing features as the largest block of text on the
    back of the box, just under a large picture of the IDE, then title it
    "Expand your programming possibilities with ... [list of features]"

    Rick



  6. #6
    Rick Golek Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

    "William Schnitzer, MCSD" <alvisdontspam@monmouth.com> wrote in message
    news:3c793dc4$1@10.1.10.29...

    > Therefore they are marketing the Standard Editions as Learning Editions

    and
    > nothing more.


    See my response to Robert for why Standard <> Learning.

    > The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart

    enough
    > to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
    > price is not too prohibitive IMHO.


    $500 isn't much for something to learn with? I can go to
    http://www.borland.com and dowload a FREE copy of JBuilder Personal, Delphi
    Personal, or Kylix Open Edition. I can go to http://java.sun.com and downoad
    a FREE copy of Forte Community Edition. Yet I must go to the store and BUY a
    copy of VB.NET Standard only to find it is just Crippleware compared to the
    previous mentioned?




  7. #7
    Rick Golek Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

    "Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
    news:3c79443c$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Wow...can't make classes...that's totally bizarre.


    No, you must have read my message as well as I read the VB.NET box. I said
    "class library", as in DLL project. If you want to build a .dll and access
    it from an .exe, can't do that in the Standard IDE. Pure foolishness when
    the best and most touted new feature of VB.NET is its OOP capabilities.
    Before you say it, yes I do know creating a separate library isn't necessary
    to use those features, but it does severely inhibit the utility even for a
    learning exercise. I really wanted to see how "visual inheritance" worked
    with controls. Nope, can't do that either. That is bizarre.

    Rick



  8. #8
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    Okay...so..just make 'em in notepad and compile at the command prompt..?
    It can't stop you from doing that.



    "Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
    >"Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
    >news:3c79443c$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> Wow...can't make classes...that's totally bizarre.

    >
    >No, you must have read my message as well as I read the VB.NET box. I said
    >"class library", as in DLL project. If you want to build a .dll and access
    >it from an .exe, can't do that in the Standard IDE. Pure foolishness when
    >the best and most touted new feature of VB.NET is its OOP capabilities.
    >Before you say it, yes I do know creating a separate library isn't necessary
    >to use those features, but it does severely inhibit the utility even for

    a
    >learning exercise. I really wanted to see how "visual inheritance" worked
    >with controls. Nope, can't do that either. That is bizarre.
    >
    >Rick
    >
    >



  9. #9
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    I just tried creating one....and yup, I think you're right.

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote:
    > > Actually...I can't grok what your saying...you make classes
    > > everywhere...in fact, if you look, your forms are classes.

    >
    >Robert: "Class Library" is a specific project type in VS.NET. To be honest,
    >I haven't created one yet so I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I imagine
    >it's the .NET equivalent of an ActiveX DLL in VB6.
    >---
    >Phil Weber
    >
    >



  10. #10
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

    > Actually...I can't grok what your saying...you make classes
    > everywhere...in fact, if you look, your forms are classes.


    Robert: "Class Library" is a specific project type in VS.NET. To be honest,
    I haven't created one yet so I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I imagine
    it's the .NET equivalent of an ActiveX DLL in VB6.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  11. #11
    Cali LaFollett Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!

    > I haven't created one yet so I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I
    imagine
    > it's the .NET equivalent of an ActiveX DLL in VB6.


    Correct...

    Cal



  12. #12
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    "Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
    news:3c7944db$1@10.1.10.29...

    > > The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart

    > enough
    > > to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
    > > price is not too prohibitive IMHO.

    >
    > $500 isn't much for something to learn with? I can go to
    > http://www.borland.com and dowload a FREE copy of JBuilder Personal,

    Delphi
    > Personal, or Kylix Open Edition. I can go to http://java.sun.com and

    downoad
    > a FREE copy of Forte Community Edition. Yet I must go to the store and BUY

    a
    > copy of VB.NET Standard only to find it is just Crippleware compared to

    the
    > previous mentioned?


    Rick,

    Do any of these products have all of these (or equivalents):
    - Mobile Web Forms
    - Visual XML Designer
    - Visual Database tools
    - Server Explorer
    - Crystal Reports
    - VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder

    I am not sure what I think about the omission of the VB6 Upgrade Wizard from
    the Standard edition. I suspect I don't think it is a big deal at all. As
    another poster has pointed out, all editions of VS.NET have the ability to
    create controls, class libraries, services. I could do all that in Notepad!.

    Kunle




  13. #13
    Rick Golek Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
    message news:3c794912@10.1.10.29...

    > Do any of these products have all of these (or equivalents):
    > - Mobile Web Forms
    > - Visual XML Designer
    > - Visual Database tools
    > - Server Explorer
    > - Crystal Reports
    > - VS Macros Editor, Explorer and Recorder


    Basically yes, didn't you read what I wrote before? I didn't spend money on
    those products, though, so I don't have the right to complain if they had
    them or not. The fact that I did spend money on crippleware VB.NET compared
    to those rather complete, free IDEs is disturbing. I don't need the fluff
    listed above, just the ability to do the "core" language things, like create
    a visual control, would be enough for me to feel I got my money's worth.

    > I am not sure what I think about the omission of the VB6 Upgrade Wizard

    from
    > the Standard edition. I suspect I don't think it is a big deal at all. As
    > another poster has pointed out, all editions of VS.NET have the ability to
    > create controls, class libraries, services. I could do all that in

    Notepad!.

    Having the ability to see some code you've personally written translated to
    VB.NET is an invaluable aide to learning. Something that is touted as an
    "upgrade" should at least have an "upgrade" capability! Crippled capability
    of doing only one form would have been enough. Just one, is that asking too
    much?



  14. #14
    Kevin Young Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    "William Schnitzer, MCSD" <alvisdontspam@monmouth.com> wrote in message
    news:3c793dc4$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart

    enough
    > to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
    > price is not too prohibitive IMHO.
    >

    The advertisement says nothing about saving your box from VS6 to qualify for
    the mail-in rebate, simply that you must be a registered owner of:
    Visual Basic 6.0 Pro or Enterprise or many of the other VS6 Pro or
    enterprise versions of software. As for the price, In my opinion it is a
    bargain!



  15. #15
    William Schnitzer, MCSD Guest

    Re: Thinking about VB.NET? Save your money!


    I agree and that is why I think Microsoft should address this issue somewhere.
    It seems to me to be shady marketing by them to call something a "Standard"
    edition when it has far fewer features than previous "Standard" editions
    of their software.

    And I didn't say that $500 wasn't much, I said it wasn't too prohibitive
    to me. $500 is a lot of money just to learn something but so is $10,000+
    for a training class or $50,000 for a college degree.

    Even if you throw in a few a couple of dollars more for some books, the total
    cost seems reasonable. Especially when you add in whatever value it adds
    to your skillsets as a programmer.

    Given the history of the company, I would not expect Microsoft of all companies
    to give anything away free or cheap without a hitch. I'll settle for them
    at least having what I consider to be reasonable prices, but blurring the
    lines between Standard and Learning editions is something that upsets me
    as much as it does anyone else.

    "Rick Golek" <jeep@comparkREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
    >"William Schnitzer, MCSD" <alvisdontspam@monmouth.com> wrote in message
    >news:3c793dc4$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    >> Therefore they are marketing the Standard Editions as Learning Editions

    >and
    >> nothing more.

    >
    >See my response to Robert for why Standard <> Learning.
    >
    >> The VS upgrade is going for a little under $500 and if you were smart

    >enough
    >> to save your box from VS6 there is $300 rebate available. Either way the
    >> price is not too prohibitive IMHO.

    >
    >$500 isn't much for something to learn with? I can go to
    >http://www.borland.com and dowload a FREE copy of JBuilder Personal, Delphi
    >Personal, or Kylix Open Edition. I can go to http://java.sun.com and downoad
    >a FREE copy of Forte Community Edition. Yet I must go to the store and BUY

    a
    >copy of VB.NET Standard only to find it is just Crippleware compared to

    the
    >previous mentioned?
    >
    >
    >



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