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Thread: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

  1. #46
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...


    "Anthony Jones" <anthony.jones@nonuesoft.spamco.uk> wrote:
    >>Changing user data without permission is a bad idea

    >
    >I don't where you keep getting this idea from. The user decided to change
    >the data when they modifed the data. There is no changing data without
    >permission.
    >
    >--
    >Anthony Jones
    >Nuesoft Ltd


    Anthony -

    From all his replies on this thread, Jeff seems to have accidentally applied
    a filter that simplifies the issues into:

    * You should never show a message box on exit.
    * All data should be committed permanently, regardless of whether users want
    to.

    With the unspoken belief that:
    * Users should just learn to deal with it.

    :-)

    --
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Chordiant Software, Inc.
    Brentford
    UK

  2. #47
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    >Changing user data without permission is a bad idea

    I don't where you keep getting this idea from. The user decided to change
    the data when they modifed the data. There is no changing data without
    permission.

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd



  3. #48
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...


    "Anthony Jones" <anthony.jones@nonuesoft.spamco.uk> wrote:
    >>>

    >When closing a form with unsaved changes
    > @ Save changes
    > @ Discard changes
    > @ Ask me
    ><<
    >
    >This would be good. What happens when the user has choosen '@ Save changes'
    >and later having pressed close on a form they realise it was a mistake?
    >
    >--
    >Anthony Jones
    >Nuesoft Ltd


    Anthony -

    Do you think that a model in which users specifically have to press a Commit
    button to permanently apply their changes is the best one? This way, the
    user is making an active decision, rather than relying on passive behaviour.
    And to ensure that the user doesn't forget that they have uncommitted changes,
    as I have said in a previous message, the user would be positively informed
    of this fact whilst in the application.

    --
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Chordiant Software, Inc.
    Brentford
    UK

  4. #49
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...


    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >"Anthony Jones" <anthony.jones@nonuesoft.spamco.uk> wrote:
    >>>>

    >>When closing a form with unsaved changes
    >> @ Save changes
    >> @ Discard changes
    >> @ Ask me
    >><<
    >>
    >>This would be good. What happens when the user has choosen '@ Save changes'
    >>and later having pressed close on a form they realise it was a mistake?
    >>
    >>--
    >>Anthony Jones
    >>Nuesoft Ltd

    >
    >Anthony -
    >
    >Do you think that a model in which users specifically have to press a Commit
    >button to permanently apply their changes is the best one? This way, the
    >user is making an active decision, rather than relying on passive behaviour.
    > And to ensure that the user doesn't forget that they have uncommitted changes,
    >as I have said in a previous message, the user would be positively informed
    >of this fact whilst in the application.


    Oh - just to clarify matters, I am not being dogmatic - I am just giving
    an example of how things could be. Obviously, the extent to which this could
    be done would be dependent on the type of application, and its complexity.

    --
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Chordiant Software, Inc.
    Brentford
    UK


  5. #50
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    >>
    When closing a form with unsaved changes
    @ Save changes
    @ Discard changes
    @ Ask me
    <<

    This would be good. What happens when the user has choosen '@ Save changes'
    and later having pressed close on a form they realise it was a mistake?

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd



  6. #51
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    Mark,

    I think that all actions should be reversible even when one 'Commits'. This
    doesn't necessarily mean undo without trace. E.g., in an accounting system
    it is possible to mistakenly transfer a figure between accounts. There may
    be some that will allow an undo without trace function but all will have a
    journalling system to allow recovery from the mistake.

    Once an application has the ability to reverse stuff the flow of the
    application can be adjusted to the nominal without the jarring message boxes
    which destroy the flow. Users can confidently work in the knowledge that if
    they mess up they can put it right.

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd



  7. #52
    Gregory Silvano Guest

    RE: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    And what happens when you display a dialog box with "Would you like to save
    changes before you exit?" and they accidentally click yes? A user mistake
    is a mistake no matter when it happens, regardless of the design. If you're
    going to confirm the saving of data, why not put a confirmation box on the
    Save button? What if they accidentally clicked it?

    You are implying that to save automatically on exit would increase the risk
    of bad data. I have not seen this to be the case - ever. Just give the
    user the choice and let them be happy with it. When *you* run that program,
    choose the Ask Me option. When *I* run the program, I'll choose the Save
    Changes option.


    Regards,

    Gregory Silvano
    http://www.codehound.com
    ******************************************************
    Search the best Visual Basic Web sites and
    millions of developer newsgroup posts at
    CodeHound!

    Download our FREE Add-In for Visual Basic
    and search the Internet right from your VB IDE!
    ******************************************************

    -----Original Message-----

    >>

    When closing a form with unsaved changes
    @ Save changes
    @ Discard changes
    @ Ask me
    <<

    This would be good. What happens when the user has choosen '@ Save changes'
    and later having pressed close on a form they realise it was a mistake?

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd





  8. #53
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    >A user mistake is a mistake no matter when it happens, regardless of the
    design.

    True but some designs allow you to recover easily from the mistake and
    others don't. The latter are characterised by 'Are you sure?' syndrome
    where the former have no need of these annoyances.

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd



  9. #54
    Michael Culley Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    > Back in 1995 I saw a program that did the
    > opposite: it looked for the "are you sure?" message boxes and told them,
    > "yes I'm sure". A workmate was
    > developing it. I wonder what he did with it. It was a cute idea.


    Do you want to format your hard drive? YES!

    I think he went broke.

    --
    Michael Culley
    www.vbdotcom.com






  10. #55
    Michael Culley Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    > going to confirm the saving of data, why not put a confirmation box on the
    > Save button?


    You can only do what is reasonable.

    > When *you* run that program,
    > choose the Ask Me option. When *I* run the program, I'll choose the Save
    > Changes option.


    There is a disadvantage to this approach, alot of people don't have specific
    users for each person so an advanced user will choses 'Always save' and the
    beginner will end up having their changes saved. The other disadvantage is
    that the behaviour of the program will be different from machine to machine.

    The way I see it the form has three buttons on it - 'OK' (save changes),
    'Cancel' (discard) and 'The little cross' (could mean anything), so they
    should be asked. If they get annoyed with the question then why don't they
    hit the OK or Cancel buttons?

    This might actually be the best answer to the solution - always ensure the
    form has OK and Cancel buttons (note I said might)

    --
    Michael Culley
    www.vbdotcom.com



    "Gregory Silvano" <gsilvano@codehound.com> wrote in message
    news:3c972778$1@10.1.10.29...
    > And what happens when you display a dialog box with "Would you like to

    save
    > changes before you exit?" and they accidentally click yes? A user mistake
    > is a mistake no matter when it happens, regardless of the design. If

    you're
    > going to confirm the saving of data, why not put a confirmation box on the
    > Save button? What if they accidentally clicked it?
    >
    > You are implying that to save automatically on exit would increase the

    risk
    > of bad data. I have not seen this to be the case - ever. Just give the
    > user the choice and let them be happy with it. When *you* run that

    program,
    > choose the Ask Me option. When *I* run the program, I'll choose the Save
    > Changes option.
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Gregory Silvano
    > http://www.codehound.com
    > ******************************************************
    > Search the best Visual Basic Web sites and
    > millions of developer newsgroup posts at
    > CodeHound!
    >
    > Download our FREE Add-In for Visual Basic
    > and search the Internet right from your VB IDE!
    > ******************************************************
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    >
    > >>

    > When closing a form with unsaved changes
    > @ Save changes
    > @ Discard changes
    > @ Ask me
    > <<
    >
    > This would be good. What happens when the user has choosen '@ Save

    changes'
    > and later having pressed close on a form they realise it was a mistake?
    >
    > --
    > Anthony Jones
    > Nuesoft Ltd
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >




  11. #56
    dnagel Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...

    How about running a little experiment???

    Please evaluate the code presented in the zip file.

    http://nagel.servehttp.com/UIProject.zip

    Lets discuss what's right and/or wrong with it.

    This is similar to many of the forms I have been
    responsible for writing in the past.

    D.


    "Shannon" <se_eckert@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:3c941fe3$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > As my current app builds in size I have noticed that I put many

    housecleaning
    > chores beneath the command button that backs out of a current form. For
    > example, an exit button might contain code to hide and unload the form, as
    > well as code clearing and unloading variable and object arrays pertaining
    > to the departing form, or what have you. Is this bad programming practice
    > to put this stuff beneath the command button? Should I be writing most of
    > it into the form.unload (or another) procedure, then just initiate the

    unload
    > with the command button?
    >
    > Trying not to develop bad habits early on. Any input or advice from

    experienced
    > programmers is greatly appreciated.








  12. #57
    Jeff Pipes Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...


    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >Anthony -
    >
    >From all his replies on this thread, Jeff seems to have accidentally applied
    >a filter that simplifies the issues into:
    >
    >* You should never show a message box on exit.


    I never said that.

    >* All data should be committed permanently, regardless of whether users

    want
    >to.


    I never said that. Do you have a reading problem?

    >With the unspoken belief that:
    >* Users should just learn to deal with it.


    So you know what I'm thinking? How long have you possessed mind reading capabilities?
    Is that where your programs get it from?

    -Jeff

  13. #58
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...


    "Jeff Pipes" <JeffP622@msn.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >>
    >>Anthony -
    >>
    >>From all his replies on this thread, Jeff seems to have accidentally applied
    >>a filter that simplifies the issues into:
    >>
    >>* You should never show a message box on exit.

    >
    >I never said that.
    >
    >>* All data should be committed permanently, regardless of whether users

    >want
    >>to.

    >
    >I never said that. Do you have a reading problem?
    >
    >>With the unspoken belief that:
    >>* Users should just learn to deal with it.

    >
    >So you know what I'm thinking? How long have you possessed mind reading

    capabilities?
    >Is that where your programs get it from?
    >
    >-Jeff


    Jeff -

    If you read my post carefully, you will see that the starred statements aren't
    quotes. I'm making the point that whilst people were expanding scope the
    thread, you were just focusing myopically on the example of the dialogue
    box that we were originally discussing.

    As for the mind reading ability - it seemed to be obvious from your posts
    that you don't appear to be very interested about the issues we've been discussing
    - just against what other people have been posting.

    --
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Chordiant Software, Inc.
    Brentford
    UK

  14. #59
    Jeff Pipes Guest

    Re: Bad programming practice? Advice needed ...


    If take your own advice and read my post carefully, you will see that I didn't
    say that the starred statements were quotes. You were misrepresting what
    I said. It doesn't matter whether you use quotes or paraphrases, it's still
    wrong.

    -Jeff

    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >If you read my post carefully, you will see that the starred statements

    aren't
    >quotes. I'm making the point that whilst people were expanding scope the
    >thread, you were just focusing myopically on the example of the dialogue
    >box that we were originally discussing.
    >
    >As for the mind reading ability - it seemed to be obvious from your posts
    >that you don't appear to be very interested about the issues we've been

    discussing
    >- just against what other people have been posting.
    >
    >--
    >Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >Programmer/Analyst
    >Chordiant Software, Inc.
    >Brentford
    >UK



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