C++ or Java ??

[Paul]

I am currently trying to change careers into IT by taking an open university
IT and Computing degree as well as studying for a C++ programmers course,
and am trying to pre guess what the best programming language is to learn
for 2 yrs on...C++ or Java ???, and would anyone have some good hints on
how to overcome the "lack of experience" bit that comes with new careers
in IT ??

[David K.]

I learned C++ before I learned Java, and I didn't have much trouble picking
up the latter. Java borrows a lot of syntax from C++, so it's not too bad
to pick it up if you know C++.

I think C++ is a good general purpose language. It's used on a variety of
platforms and in numerous types of applications. Ideally, though, you shouldn't
limit yourself to one language. After you pick up a few languages, you'll
soon realize that most share a lot of the same concepts. The important thing
is to learn general programming techniques, like algorithms, data structures,
software engineering, object-oriented analysis & design. That way you will
be a good developer in ANY language.

As far as hints for overcoming "lack of experience", there are already a
lot of excellent posts on this board with a lot of great suggestions. Since
you are going to school, see if your school has a career office. They may
be able to help you get your foot in the door.

"Paul" <Paulykins@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>I am currently trying to change careers into IT by taking an open university
>IT and Computing degree as well as studying for a C++ programmers course,
>and am trying to pre guess what the best programming language is to learn
>for 2 yrs on...C++ or Java ???, and would anyone have some good hints on
>how to overcome the "lack of experience" bit that comes with new careers
>in IT ??

[Jayson]

"Paul" <Paulykins@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>I am currently trying to change careers into IT by taking an open university
>IT and Computing degree as well as studying for a C++ programmers course,
>and am trying to pre guess what the best programming language is to learn
>for 2 yrs on...C++ or Java ???, and would anyone have some good hints on
>how to overcome the "lack of experience" bit that comes with new careers
>in IT ??

Paul,
I have learned a long time ago, that programming is very related to your
personality. In this context, how curious are you about programming? If
you're very curious, and have dreams about being an electron moving from
transitor to another, turning bytes on and off, then I suggest C++. If you're
purely a UI person, where all you think about is what users see, and don't
have a care in the world how things are implemented behind the scenes, then
go for Java. I really curl up in discontent on how you managed to compare
C++ and Java. That's probably only because, I'm a VB/C++ lover and hate
Java with a passion. There's issues behind that "hate" too, that we won't
get into. If you want to learn a real programming language and recieve the
self-content feeling in learning a challenging language, go for C++. Don't
waste your time with Java, its going to go away, anyway. Believe me, Java
won't provide you with Pazlov's self-actualized feeling.

That's my humble opinion.
Jayson

[Jayson]

I very much agree with David on his notion of learning concepts, rather than
the language. If you learn what he mentioned, and really understand the
concepts behind them, you'll set yourself apart from other developers.

DO NOT RELY on schooling alone. I've been down that path, and got really
frustrated with it. Before I landed a developer job, school was everything
to me. I loved going there and just being in front of VB and C++. However,
when I got my "foot" in the door, everything became tedious. I saw that
my school (I won't mention the name), wasn't really teaching me what I needed
to learn. I learned far more than I ever could've in the two weeks at my
new job than I would've at school. Use schooling as a tool and a tool only.

Pursue your interests, delve into subjects, and most importantly, explore.
Question everything.

"David K." <davidk@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>I learned C++ before I learned Java, and I didn't have much trouble picking
>up the latter. Java borrows a lot of syntax from C++, so it's not too bad
>to pick it up if you know C++.
>
>I think C++ is a good general purpose language. It's used on a variety
of
>platforms and in numerous types of applications. Ideally, though, you shouldn't
>limit yourself to one language. After you pick up a few languages, you'll
>soon realize that most share a lot of the same concepts. The important
thing
>is to learn general programming techniques, like algorithms, data structures,
>software engineering, object-oriented analysis & design. That way you will
>be a good developer in ANY language.
>
>As far as hints for overcoming "lack of experience", there are already a
>lot of excellent posts on this board with a lot of great suggestions. Since
>you are going to school, see if your school has a career office. They may
>be able to help you get your foot in the door.
>
>"Paul" <Paulykins@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>I am currently trying to change careers into IT by taking an open university
>>IT and Computing degree as well as studying for a C++ programmers course,
>>and am trying to pre guess what the best programming language is to learn
>>for 2 yrs on...C++ or Java ???, and would anyone have some good hints on
>>how to overcome the "lack of experience" bit that comes with new careers
>>in IT ??
>

[Matthew Cromer]

Translation: Jayson says avoid Java because he hates it and it sucks and trust
him its going away and he has good reasons to hate it but won't tell you.

[John Cantley]

Matthew,

Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?

John

[Matthew Cromer]

"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew,
>
> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>
>John
>
>

So Jayson can just post unsubstantiated smears like the above and I should
let it pass?!

[Chris Hofstaedter]

"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Matthew,
>>
>> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>
>So Jayson can just post unsubstantiated smears like the above and I should
>let it pass?!
>

yes. of course you should.

religious language wars are for the immature. whether by accident or on
purpose, jayson's unsubstantiated statement of hate for java was an obvious
troll. it should be ignored.

[David K.]

Jayson:

"Jayson" <jayson.go@home.com> wrote:
>
>Paul,
>I have learned a long time ago, that programming is very related to your
>personality. In this context, how curious are you about programming? If
>you're very curious, and have dreams about being an electron moving from
>transitor to another, turning bytes on and off, then I suggest C++. If
you're
>purely a UI person, where all you think about is what users see, and don't
>have a care in the world how things are implemented behind the scenes, then
>go for Java.

Actually, if you REALLY want to program close to the metal, why not just
program in straight assembler? Of couse, don't expect to actually get anything
done in a reasonable amount of time!

I don't totally agree with your comment about choosing a language based on
your personality. I agree that there are some languages I enjoy more than
others, but that's not a good enough reason to learn it. You should learn
a language that is appropriate and relevant to whatever your career goals
happen to be. Languages are tools. Period.

>I really curl up in discontent on how you managed to compare
>C++ and Java. That's probably only because, I'm a VB/C++ lover and hate
>Java with a passion.

It's funny that use the phrase "VB/C++" like they are brothers or something,
and yet you don't like the comparison between C++ and Java! I think that
speaks for itself.

>There's issues behind that "hate" too, that we won't
>get into.

I'm not a big Java rah-rah person, but I wouldn't say I "hate" the language.
To be honest, I reserve words like "hate" for things that really deserve
them, not programming languages.

By the way, since you brought it up, why DO you "hate" Java?

If you want to learn a real programming language and recieve the
>self-content feeling in learning a challenging language, go for C++.

Again, "challenging" should have nothing to do with it. You should base
your decision on what language is relevant to your career. I'm not saying
that you shouldn't learn C++. In fact, I'm a big fan of C++. However, I
think you need to have more practical reasons than, "it's challenging".

>Don't waste your time with Java, its going to go away, anyway. Believe
>me, Java won't provide you with Pazlov's self-actualized feeling.
>

While I can't predict the future, it's unlikely that it's going to go away
in the near term. There is enough people and companies behind Java to keep
it going for quite some time. It's the platform of choice for the "anything-but-Microsoft"
crowd, and that alone is enough to keep it relevant.

>That's my humble opinion.
>Jayson

Likewise
David

[Matthew Cromer]

"Chris Hofstaedter" <chofstaedter@padcomusa.com> wrote:
>
>"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
>>
>>"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Matthew,
>>>
>>> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>
>>So Jayson can just post unsubstantiated smears like the above and I should
>>let it pass?!
>>
>
>yes. of course you should.
>
>religious language wars are for the immature. whether by accident or on
>purpose, jayson's unsubstantiated statement of hate for java was an obvious
>troll. it should be ignored.

It was a troll, but it was couched as _advice_ for a new developer. And
that is the purpose of this forum. So when someone offers what I consider
an unsubstantiated smear of Java and no argument, I think it is worth pointing
out the fact so my silence is not taken as assent.

[chris]

"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>"Chris Hofstaedter" <chofstaedter@padcomusa.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Matthew,
>>>>
>>>> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>So Jayson can just post unsubstantiated smears like the above and I should
>>>let it pass?!
>>>
>>
>>yes. of course you should.
>>
>>religious language wars are for the immature. whether by accident or on
>>purpose, jayson's unsubstantiated statement of hate for java was an obvious
>>troll. it should be ignored.
>
>It was a troll, but it was couched as _advice_ for a new developer. And
>that is the purpose of this forum. So when someone offers what I consider
>an unsubstantiated smear of Java and no argument, I think it is worth pointing
>out the fact so my silence is not taken as assent.

this is very similar to a conversation that i recently had with my nephew
about road rage....he claimed that if he didnt respond to the other driver's
rudeness on the road, then that was implied approval of the other driver's
bad behavior.

i wasnt able to convince him. i guess i dont care enough to try to convince
you either.

[samuel]

"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Matthew,
>>
>> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>
>So Jayson can just post unsubstantiated smears like the above and I should
>let it pass?!
>

[David K..]

Why is everyone giving Mr. Cromer so much grief???? I don't particularly
like "religious wars", and I realize that Jayson's post was a troll; however,
I can't blame somebody for standing up and challenging Jayson's "advice".

If you are so concerned about the signal-to-noise ratio, you should contribute
to the "signal" instead of complaining about the "noise", thereby adding
to it in a most ironic fashion!

[Jayson]

"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew,
>
> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>
>John
>
>
Don't be a hypocrite. The fact that your face is red frustration with my
opinions, only show that you have bias in some other language. I have languages
of choice and I'm not afraid to voice my affinity for them. Before you go
on with your "crap" remark, think about what that makes you look like.

Jayson

[Kip]

About a year ago, an editor from a very popular national computer paper wrote
an article on the similarities and differences concerning Java and C++. The
article was unfairly and obviously biased, as most language comparisons are.
I wrote a letter to the editor (which was published in the next issue) and
expressed my resentment at printing such a column, that served no real technical
purpose to the programming community, other than perhaps some emergency toilet
paper. The editor tried to defend his article, but to no success.

After coming across this kind of ‘thing’ (language bashing) a few more times.
I realized that the kind of people who do this, are probably people that
are either:

-internally frustrated at their lack of programming talent.
-afraid of learning a new language.
-or simply live inside a protective bubble that is their “favorite” language:
thus making themselves inefficient in making technical decisions.

The above is not a “be all or end all” view, just me 2 cents. I’ve said it
many times (like others here) and I will say it again and again:

PROGRAMMING LANUAGES ARE TOOLS.

Like a hammer and chisel are tools to a carpenter. Can you imagine a carpenter
vigorously arguing that the hammer is better than the saw???? That would
make no sense. Your comments were either a TROLL….or they were simply an
uneducated, biased opinion about our current technologies. Many books and
publications consider avid language comparisons as unprofessional and childish.

You need to spend more time with good books and get some diverse programming
knowledge….then again, maybe your just in the wrong career. Have your tried
law school? I hear lawyers need more irrational minds… ; )

*Kip*



"Jayson" <jayson.go@home.com> wrote:
>
>"John Cantley" <jcstrider@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Matthew,
>>
>> Don't you tire of the 'My language is better than yours' crap?
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>Don't be a hypocrite. The fact that your face is red frustration with my
>opinions, only show that you have bias in some other language. I have languages
>of choice and I'm not afraid to voice my affinity for them. Before you
go
>on with your "crap" remark, think about what that makes you look like.
>
>Jayson