Java skillset

[No one]

I find the following article to be so biased:

http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2002.../salarysurvey/

[Mark]

It is a survey result not really an article. Take it for what it is worth.


I've heard of others doing well during the recession too. If one has good
mix of skillsets they can still get work.


"No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
>I find the following article to be so biased:
>
>http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2002.../salarysurvey/
>
>

[No one]

"Mark" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cd27d6e$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> It is a survey result not really an article. Take it for what it is
worth.
>
Call it a survey or article, it doesn't matter. The author of this "survey"
appears to be out of touch with reality.

> I've heard of others doing well during the recession too. If one has good
> mix of skillsets they can still get work.
>

Yeah, tell that to the population of unemployed and experienced IT workers.
Just look at this link
http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/03/news...nomy/index.htm


> "No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
> >I find the following article to be so biased:
> >
> >http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2002.../salarysurvey/
> >
> >
>

[Jeff]

"No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
>I find the following article to be so biased:
>
>http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2002.../salarysurvey/
>
>

My take on the survey is this - do IT people really make that much? Those
numbers seem awfully high to me. I'm in the Dallas market, and I do not
see anything near 90K for anyone except an architect or someone with very
specialized skills. For someone who is basically a programmer analyst -
one who designs and codes programs and tests and implements them, along with
some upfront requirements gathering work - I think the average salary range
is probably more like 50K - 75K, depending on experience. This would be
for a full-time permanent employee, not a contractor.

Any other thoughts? I'm almost 36, I work mainly with C++ (rather than Java),
I have a bachelors degree - should I be miffed because I'm making quite a
bit less than 93K per year?

[MarkN]

What do you define as IT people?

>I be miffed because I'm making quite a
>bit less than 93K per year?

If you are an employee who works 40hrs, has a limited skillset (a language
and a database) and doesn't spend any extra time learning than the company
pays for - then no.

If you are a quick study, have a wide range of knowledge, put in over 60hrs,
constantly learn about new techniques/tools/technologies and are willing
to go where you need to - then yes.


"Jeff" <jeff@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>"No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
>>I find the following article to be so biased:
>>
>>http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2002.../salarysurvey/
>>
>>
>
>My take on the survey is this - do IT people really make that much? Those
>numbers seem awfully high to me. I'm in the Dallas market, and I do not
>see anything near 90K for anyone except an architect or someone with very
>specialized skills. For someone who is basically a programmer analyst -
>one who designs and codes programs and tests and implements them, along
with
>some upfront requirements gathering work - I think the average salary range
>is probably more like 50K - 75K, depending on experience. This would be
>for a full-time permanent employee, not a contractor.
>
>Any other thoughts? I'm almost 36, I work mainly with C++ (rather than
Java),
>I have a bachelors degree - should I be miffed because I'm making quite
a
>bit less than 93K per year?
>

[MarkN]

"No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
>
>"Mark" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cd27d6e$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> It is a survey result not really an article. Take it for what it is
>worth.
>>
>Call it a survey or article, it doesn't matter. The author of this "survey"
>appears to be out of touch with reality.
>
>> I've heard of others doing well during the recession too. If one has
good
>> mix of skillsets they can still get work.
>>
>
>Yeah, tell that to the population of unemployed and experienced IT workers.
>Just look at this link
>http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/03/news...nomy/index.htm
>

What do you and they consider to be IT workers? Help desk? I think many
who are fringe IT are lumped into this group.

I don't personally know of any IT workers without work. I know of others
(managers,etc) who are but not many. Don't get me wrong, I know there are
[real] IT people out of work, I just haven't personally met them.


One of my friends who places contract people and does 'off-site' work said
things had seemed to have dried up for a while but now have picked back up.
The thing is that those he is using are VERY good - both knowledge and ability
with the ability to adapt and learn quickly. With out these traits one is
just another fish in the sea.

Mark

[Jeff]

"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote:
>
>What do you define as IT people?
>
Well, there is a very broad range of "IT people". The survey included people
who consider themselves to be supervisors, managers, scientists, engineers,
and more.

>>I be miffed because I'm making quite a
>>bit less than 93K per year?
>
>If you are an employee who works 40hrs, has a limited skillset (a language
>and a database) and doesn't spend any extra time learning than the company
>pays for - then no.
>
>If you are a quick study, have a wide range of knowledge, put in over >60hrs,
constantly learn about new techniques/tools/technologies and are
>willing to go where you need to - then yes.
>

If I honestly assess myself according to your criteria, I consider myself
to be proficient in multiple languages (although I don't have a lot of experience
in some, I have been very productive when given the opportunity); I typically
work an average 40 hour week, more when I need to; I learn on my own by reading
books and magazines, but I do not take any classes; I am a quick learner;
I'm not too crazy about travel and I'm not willing to relocate. I have no
certifications at the moment, mainly because I'm not convinced they would
help me that much (and the survey alludes to this as well). So, I guess
I shouldn't be too miffed, huh?

In some ways I have put myself in my situation by not being willing to look
that hard outside my company for jobs that would allow me to learn and apply
new technology. A lot of companies are not that "bleeding edge" and they
stick with what has worked in the past. If I stay put, I won't be rewarded
much, if at all, by busting my tail to learn new technology. I won't get
a chance to use it here, and I'd likely have to travel or relocate to get
a chance to use it. There are other reasons I prefer to stay put. It sucks
that it is easier to improve my compensation and skills by jumping ship rather
than my staying where I am. But life is full of tradeoffs, and this is one
of them.

I'm not sure what to think about salary surveys. To me, they seem to be
very general, and it's hard to see how I fit into their numbers. Also, if
a salary survey is based on people responding to it, I would imagine the
numbers would tend to be higher. This is because the most serious programmers
are the ones who actually take the time to read the magazines conducting
the surveys, and they are more likely to respond. And people whose primary
responsibility is not programming (like managers and architects) can also
skew the numbers higher. A lot of programmers don't think about programming
outside of work and thus would not read the magazines and thus don't respond
to the surveys. So, in the case of this particular salary survey, I think
the primary respondents were the "high achievers" and that is what makes
the numbers seem so high.

[No one]

"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cd305ea$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> > So, in the case of this particular salary survey, I think
> >the primary respondents were the "high achievers" and that is what makes
> >the numbers seem so high.
>
> I agree. Which is why being miffed about it is silly (this is for the
original
> poster)

Then why did you do it yourself? :-)

[MarkN]

> So, in the case of this particular salary survey, I think
>the primary respondents were the "high achievers" and that is what makes
>the numbers seem so high.

I agree. Which is why being miffed about it is silly (this is for the original
poster)

[No one]

"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cd2bac6$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> What do you and they consider to be IT workers? Help desk? I think many
> who are fringe IT are lumped into this group.

As the other poster already indicated, it is commonly accepted that Software
Engineers and programmers are IT workers! your line of questions indicate
that you either make an assumptions about other people knowledge or you
intentionally underestimate what they know.

> I don't personally know of any IT workers without work. I

good for you.

> know of others
> (managers,etc) who are but not many. Don't get me wrong, I know there are
> [real] IT people out of work, I just haven't personally met them.

*real* IT people? hahaha ... are you saying Java developers have been fully
employed since the start of the recession?

>
> One of my friends who places contract people and does 'off-site' work said
> things had seemed to have dried up for a while but now have picked back
up.
> The thing is that those he is using are VERY good - both knowledge and
ability
> with the ability to adapt and learn quickly. With out these traits one is
> just another fish in the sea.

There is no question that the people with technical strengh could adapt
well, but you seem to imply that these are the same people who can't be
unemployed in this recession. If that is the case, you just haven't
experienced the downturn yet!


> Mark

[tryit]

Anyway it may indicate a bright side in the near future, we'd better pay more
attention to the skill set also, if you prepared properly, then you can catch
the chances that will come.

[MarkN]

"No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
>
>"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cd2bac6$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> What do you and they consider to be IT workers? Help desk? I think many
>> who are fringe IT are lumped into this group.
>
>As the other poster already indicated, it is commonly accepted that Software
>Engineers and programmers are IT workers! your line of questions indicate
>that you either make an assumptions about other people knowledge or you
>intentionally underestimate what they know.

Those reporting 'X' number of 'IT' workers are out of work are making these
assumptions. Not me. Those doing the hiring (or not) are too. I was just
questioning the numbers.

>
>> I don't personally know of any IT workers without work. I
>
>good for you.

And good for them.

>
>> know of others
>> (managers,etc) who are but not many. Don't get me wrong, I know there
are
>> [real] IT people out of work, I just haven't personally met them.
>
>*real* IT people? hahaha ... are you saying Java developers have been fully
>employed since the start of the recession?

No. What brought up Java? I know COBOL programmers and VB programmers.

>
> >
>> One of my friends who places contract people and does 'off-site' work
said
>> things had seemed to have dried up for a while but now have picked back
>up.
>> The thing is that those he is using are VERY good - both knowledge and
>ability
>> with the ability to adapt and learn quickly. With out these traits one
is
>> just another fish in the sea.
>
>There is no question that the people with technical strengh could adapt
>well, but you seem to imply that these are the same people who can't be
>unemployed in this recession. If that is the case, you just haven't
>experienced the downturn yet!

Yes, there is a question. I know of people with 'technical strength' that
could not adapt. They are good with the technologies and techniques that
they know. But as soon as they go outside that box it seems they don't have
clue.

I'm not implying they cannot be employeed. But I am saying it takes more
than a little programming experience - alot more - in a time like this.
Does it guarantee a job? No. There are way to many things in the mix to
point to any one thing. One could have everything going for them - but lives
in an area not hiring anyone.

When I got into the 'IT' industry almost no one was hiring entry level.
Only big companies like EDS were. And the pay was really low. I had to
get a second job.

>
>
>> Mark
>
>

[MarkN]

"No one" <noone@tobenoted.com> wrote:
>
>"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3cd305ea$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> > So, in the case of this particular salary survey, I think
>> >the primary respondents were the "high achievers" and that is what makes
>> >the numbers seem so high.
>>
>> I agree. Which is why being miffed about it is silly (this is for the
>original
>> poster)
>
>Then why did you do it yourself? :-)
>

It? I wasn't upset.

[patch]

MarkN wrote in message <3cd65f8f$1@10.1.10.29>...

>Yes, there is a question. I know of people with 'technical strength' that
>could not adapt. They are good with the technologies and techniques that
>they know. But as soon as they go outside that box it seems they don't
have
>clue.
>
>I'm not implying they cannot be employeed. But I am saying it takes more
>than a little programming experience - alot more - in a time like this.
>Does it guarantee a job? No

I have to agree with Mark here.. It used to be enough for me to know for
instance html/javascript/photoshop (don't laugh) to apply for webcoder but
the job-applications I see nowadays they ask for much more, some of those
advertisements seem to ask for multiple different persons (designer, coder,
content analyst, manager etc) but they want it all in one person.. The
skillsets they ask for nowadays, wether that be purely programming or also
management skills, are so diverse I sometimes wonder where they think to get
such a person..

Now, i'm good at what I do and i'm flexible and fast-learning enough to be
at least fairly good at what I don't but I also have to consider my age and
experience level. it seems that sometimes they'd rather ask for someone
younger who's gonna make all the startup-misstakes I long since passed and
pay less than hire me and have to pay more because of my age/experience,
though I probably do the job in half the time, maybe less.....

And then there's still the buzz-word thing.. though the 'buzz' is long gone
from the IT field it seems recruiters didn't notice and are still blinded by
everything 'new'.. most job-advertisements I see nowadays look more like a
cristmas-whish-list than any real-world skillset.. I'd love to send you some
of the more extreme I collected but these are all in dutch... I'll give you
one example though;
in thisone they asked for someone who's good at asp, php, html, scripting,
sql servers, is a content-analyst, is an interaction designer, works with
photoshop, flash, dreamweaver, illustrator (oh, this list was endless), is a
database designer/programmer, knows the ins and outs of what is possible in
the web (and what not), knows all about the laws considering user-privacy,
furthermore this person should be enthousiastic, analytic, social and
communicative and a teamplayer..

When I called wether they ment this as a managing-job they responded that
this person would as well do the coding/designing hands on... I then asked
if this was a small company site they were developing they told me it was
for multiple sites.. I then asked them if this person should also be able to
walk on water whch totally confused the guy I was talking with.. I called
again two weeks later and it seemed they indeed hired a team of three
youngsters.. "it was not doable else" the guy told me.. I just slammed the
phone.. situations like this tick me off extremely because its bad for the
ego of people like us... I keep feeling like I'm some dumbass who knows
nothing and that there must be a large group of uber-coders where I never
will belong...

patch

[Michael Q. Gautier]

You have managers out there that taken over projects and several things may
have happened:

1.) The manager is a relatively inexperienced project manager.
2.) They may fear that an older person would see through their flaws.
3.) The manager is trigger happy in that they don't have the strength
for "deliberate" development or to advocate such rather, they bend to the
pressure to deliver fast.





"patch" <pretpet@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>MarkN wrote in message <3cd65f8f$1@10.1.10.29>...
>
>>Yes, there is a question. I know of people with 'technical strength' that
>>could not adapt. They are good with the technologies and techniques that
>>they know. But as soon as they go outside that box it seems they don't
>have
>>clue.
>>
>>I'm not implying they cannot be employeed. But I am saying it takes more
>>than a little programming experience - alot more - in a time like this.
>>Does it guarantee a job? No
>
>I have to agree with Mark here.. It used to be enough for me to know for
>instance html/javascript/photoshop (don't laugh) to apply for webcoder but
>the job-applications I see nowadays they ask for much more, some of those
>advertisements seem to ask for multiple different persons (designer, coder,
>content analyst, manager etc) but they want it all in one person.. The
>skillsets they ask for nowadays, wether that be purely programming or also
>management skills, are so diverse I sometimes wonder where they think to
get
>such a person..
>
>Now, i'm good at what I do and i'm flexible and fast-learning enough to
be
>at least fairly good at what I don't but I also have to consider my age
and
>experience level. it seems that sometimes they'd rather ask for someone
>younger who's gonna make all the startup-misstakes I long since passed and
>pay less than hire me and have to pay more because of my age/experience,
>though I probably do the job in half the time, maybe less.....
>
>And then there's still the buzz-word thing.. though the 'buzz' is long gone
>from the IT field it seems recruiters didn't notice and are still blinded
by
>everything 'new'.. most job-advertisements I see nowadays look more like
a
>cristmas-whish-list than any real-world skillset.. I'd love to send you
some
>of the more extreme I collected but these are all in dutch... I'll give
you
>one example though;
>in thisone they asked for someone who's good at asp, php, html, scripting,
>sql servers, is a content-analyst, is an interaction designer, works with
>photoshop, flash, dreamweaver, illustrator (oh, this list was endless),
is a
>database designer/programmer, knows the ins and outs of what is possible
in
>the web (and what not), knows all about the laws considering user-privacy,
>furthermore this person should be enthousiastic, analytic, social and
>communicative and a teamplayer..
>
>When I called wether they ment this as a managing-job they responded that
>this person would as well do the coding/designing hands on... I then asked
>if this was a small company site they were developing they told me it was
>for multiple sites.. I then asked them if this person should also be able
to
>walk on water whch totally confused the guy I was talking with.. I called
>again two weeks later and it seemed they indeed hired a team of three
>youngsters.. "it was not doable else" the guy told me.. I just slammed the
>phone.. situations like this tick me off extremely because its bad for the
>ego of people like us... I keep feeling like I'm some dumbass who knows
>nothing and that there must be a large group of uber-coders where I never
>will belong...
>
>patch
>
>
>
>
>
>