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Thread: Do you find UML useful?

  1. #1
    Eli Guest

    Do you find UML useful?

    I am getting heavily involved learning UML. In theory it makes a lot of
    sense that using UML will help in at least two very important areas of
    software development:
    1) Understanding clearly exactly what the client wants
    2) Building a system correct the first time without having to make any
    corrections and additions afterwards

    Does anyone have any experience good or bad using UML? Is it really
    worthwhile spending all the extra time drawing up all different types of
    diagrams in order to get the system clear before starting?

    TIA
    --
    Eli




  2. #2
    john Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    In my experience, yes! How often do clients kind of have an idea of what
    it is they want...until they have a visual picture of what it is you deem as
    requirements? I believe and follow RUP (Rational Unified Process) and
    prefer to use Rational Rose when possible.

    As a note, it's not very often that the original requirements and the final
    project are one in the same... Clients realize, when else, in the middle of
    a project that they want to modify this, add that, etc...thus necessitating
    a change control system.


    "Eli" <eli_meso@inter.net.il> wrote in message
    news:3b98b821@news.devx.com...
    > I am getting heavily involved learning UML. In theory it makes a lot of
    > sense that using UML will help in at least two very important areas of
    > software development:
    > 1) Understanding clearly exactly what the client wants
    > 2) Building a system correct the first time without having to make any
    > corrections and additions afterwards
    >
    > Does anyone have any experience good or bad using UML? Is it really
    > worthwhile spending all the extra time drawing up all different types of
    > diagrams in order to get the system clear before starting?
    >
    > TIA
    > --
    > Eli
    >
    >
    >




  3. #3
    Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    "Eli" <eli_meso@inter.net.il> wrote in message news:3b98b821@news.devx.com...

    > I am getting heavily involved learning UML. In theory it makes a lot of
    > sense that using UML will help in at least two very important areas of
    > software development:
    > 1) Understanding clearly exactly what the client wants


    That only works if the clients themselves know "clearly exactly"
    what they want. Usually they don't -- they only know what they
    *don't* want, which plays merry **** with every CASE tool I've
    ever seen!

    > 2) Building a system correct the first time without having to make any
    > corrections and additions afterwards


    "It's exactly what I asked for, but it's not what I want!"

    Unfortunately, I haven't yet found anything better than a nice big
    sketchbook and a box of multicolored pencils or, later, the rigged
    demo. Who cares whether or not CCustomer can invoke CInventory's
    properties directly or must instead go through COrder and CInvoice?
    If the user has to navigate amongst ten windows to do some simple
    task, the (cr)app is doomed, no matter how elegant things are under
    the hood!

    --
    Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> Sign the Check! <http://www.xenu.net/>
    WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
    because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!



  4. #4
    Eli Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    <<I believe and follow RUP (Rational Unified Process)>>

    What is RUP? Where can I find out more about it?

    <<and prefer to use Rational Rose when possible.>>

    I have used Visual Modeler that comes with Visual Studio for doing medium
    size VB applications (30k - 60k lines of code) and found it extremely
    useful. Do you think that the professional Rational Rose edition has much
    more to offer?

    <<Clients realize, when else, in the middle of
    a project that they want to modify this, add that, etc...thus necessitating
    a change control system.>>

    I've also had my fair share of experience with clients:-(! However, do you
    think that UML greatly reduces those types of problem?

    Eli


    "john" <johnny> wrote in message news:3b98dddb$1@news.devx.com...
    > In my experience, yes! How often do clients kind of have an idea of what
    > it is they want...until they have a visual picture of what it is you deem

    as
    > requirements? I believe and follow RUP (Rational Unified Process) and
    > prefer to use Rational Rose when possible.
    >
    > As a note, it's not very often that the original requirements and the

    final
    > project are one in the same... Clients realize, when else, in the middle

    of
    > a project that they want to modify this, add that, etc...thus

    necessitating
    > a change control system.
    >




  5. #5
    Willy Van den Driessche Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    UML has its merits but IMHO not the ones you envision.

    Understanding what the client means doesn't come from UML I'm afraid.
    Although good use-case are generally good for understanding what the client
    wants the system to do. You can rarely know what the client wants because
    in general he doesn't know exactly himself. UML is not the best choice for
    verifying requirements with the customer. There are few programmers who
    know UML (to a point that let's them call themselves experts), let alone
    that a customer knows the semantics of the diagrams you show him.
    There is also no such thing as building a system correctly from the first
    time without corrections. I have never seen it and I would be very
    impressed to hear such stories.

    For some time now, I have been asking myself what's wrong with our business.
    We deliver 1 project in 4 and most of the time not on time and not on
    budget. The only reasonable answers are that our industry is not mature
    enough. We have made tremendous passes forward, but we are still not an
    established business. Most programs are a work of hard labor. The
    technique I have used in my latest project is a variation of the Extreme
    programming stuff (Beck e.a.). We work with a 'customer' in our team always
    available for answers. We don't generally plan for the big leaps but take a
    piecemeal growth scenario. Features are listed and prioritized, estimated
    and programmed. The longest feature took 1 month to program. In general we
    count in days or weeks. About the only thing that is constant in our
    program is change. We have done a fair job a 'previewing' some changes but
    there are just as many changes that we were not able to foresee in the
    future. The bottom line is that we design and program with 'change' in
    mind. We don't foresee each and every change possible. We just program
    what has been asked (without being stupid).
    For us this has been a wonderful experience. There was some initial UML but
    we never really used that (it was trying to define everything up front). We
    use paper and ballpoint to explain to each other what we are doing and how
    we would do something. We are constantly making small refactorings, not
    because our initial design was bad, but because the application really
    changes. By now we see an embryo of a framework coming out of the app.
    This framework would be completely useless outside of our application but it
    will soon enable us to grow some product families. (similar applications
    with architecture sharing but different target markets)

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying UML is bad or good for nothing. I'm just
    trying to say that UML is just your hammer. It's good for nails but you
    still need the proper craftsmen to do the job. People and good and frequent
    communication is the real keys to successful projects. (for a fine article,
    see : http://www.martinfowler.com/articles...thodology.html)

    see you,
    --
    Van den Driessche Willy
    For a work in progress :
    http://users.skynet.be/wvdd2/index.html
    "Eli" <eli_meso@inter.net.il> wrote in message
    news:3b98b821@news.devx.com...
    > I am getting heavily involved learning UML. In theory it makes a lot of
    > sense that using UML will help in at least two very important areas of
    > software development:
    > 1) Understanding clearly exactly what the client wants
    > 2) Building a system correct the first time without having to make any
    > corrections and additions afterwards
    >
    > Does anyone have any experience good or bad using UML? Is it really
    > worthwhile spending all the extra time drawing up all different types of
    > diagrams in order to get the system clear before starting?
    >
    > TIA
    > --
    > Eli
    >
    >
    >




  6. #6
    john Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    RUP is the Rational Unified Process
    (http://www.rational.com/products/rup/index.jsp). We have implemented
    several enterprise applications following these methodologies...and all with
    great success (under budget, on time). It is my experience that UML as it
    relates to RUP does greatly diminish problems...but it doesn't eliminate
    them. In addition, I like the Rational Rose tool...and I think that the
    power of RUP and Rational Rose are evident if are on a project with someone
    that is an "expert" on those tools.



    "Eli" <eli_meso@inter.net.il> wrote in message
    news:3b9a8044@news.devx.com...
    > <<I believe and follow RUP (Rational Unified Process)>>
    >
    > What is RUP? Where can I find out more about it?
    >
    > <<and prefer to use Rational Rose when possible.>>
    >
    > I have used Visual Modeler that comes with Visual Studio for doing medium
    > size VB applications (30k - 60k lines of code) and found it extremely
    > useful. Do you think that the professional Rational Rose edition has much
    > more to offer?
    >
    > <<Clients realize, when else, in the middle of
    > a project that they want to modify this, add that, etc...thus

    necessitating
    > a change control system.>>
    >
    > I've also had my fair share of experience with clients:-(! However, do you
    > think that UML greatly reduces those types of problem?
    >
    > Eli
    >
    >
    > "john" <johnny> wrote in message news:3b98dddb$1@news.devx.com...
    > > In my experience, yes! How often do clients kind of have an idea of

    what
    > > it is they want...until they have a visual picture of what it is you

    deem
    > as
    > > requirements? I believe and follow RUP (Rational Unified Process) and
    > > prefer to use Rational Rose when possible.
    > >
    > > As a note, it's not very often that the original requirements and the

    > final
    > > project are one in the same... Clients realize, when else, in the

    middle
    > of
    > > a project that they want to modify this, add that, etc...thus

    > necessitating
    > > a change control system.
    > >

    >
    >




  7. #7
    Ted Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?


    Joe, you are a moron. You must have "seen" many CASE tools but have you ever
    actually used one?

    "Joe \"Nuke Me Xemu\" Foster" <joe@bftsi0.UUCP> wrote:
    >"Eli" <eli_meso@inter.net.il> wrote in message news:3b98b821@news.devx.com...
    >
    >> I am getting heavily involved learning UML. In theory it makes a lot of
    >> sense that using UML will help in at least two very important areas of
    >> software development:
    >> 1) Understanding clearly exactly what the client wants

    >
    >That only works if the clients themselves know "clearly exactly"
    >what they want. Usually they don't -- they only know what they
    >*don't* want, which plays merry **** with every CASE tool I've
    >ever seen!
    >
    >> 2) Building a system correct the first time without having to make any
    >> corrections and additions afterwards

    >
    >"It's exactly what I asked for, but it's not what I want!"
    >
    >Unfortunately, I haven't yet found anything better than a nice big
    >sketchbook and a box of multicolored pencils or, later, the rigged
    >demo. Who cares whether or not CCustomer can invoke CInventory's
    >properties directly or must instead go through COrder and CInvoice?
    >If the user has to navigate amongst ten windows to do some simple
    >task, the (cr)app is doomed, no matter how elegant things are under
    >the hood!
    >
    >--
    >Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> Sign the Check! <http://www.xenu.net/>
    >WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming

    to
    >because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away,

    ha ha!
    >
    >



  8. #8
    Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    "Ted" <TTarney@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3b9fc8d8@news.devx.com...

    > Joe, you are a moron. You must have "seen" many CASE tools but have you ever
    > actually used one?


    Isn't there an "off.ramp" for that sort of thing? Perhaps you could
    enlighten us all about which CASE silver bullet can design all your
    applications perfectly the first time, with no mid-course corrections
    requiring time-consuming redrawing with the mouse, hmmm?

    --
    Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> L. Ron Dullard <http://www.xenu.net/>
    WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
    because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!



  9. #9
    Ted Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?


    Oh this is what you're talking about? OK.
    >> Joe, you are a moron. You must have "seen" many CASE tools but have you

    ever
    >> actually used one?

    >
    >Isn't there an "off.ramp" for that sort of thing? Perhaps you could
    >enlighten us all about which CASE silver bullet can design all your
    >applications perfectly the first time, with no mid-course corrections
    >requiring time-consuming redrawing with the mouse, hmmm?
    >

    Joe you still like to hop around and not answer what was asked. Tell me
    what CASE tools you use? I have to go to the offramp to ask you this question?
    I guess that statement is much worse than that made about my wife?

    As for silver bullets, let's just say nothing goes perfect right? It's called
    an iterative process Joe. That's why we have a "modified" XP here at my
    company. We work in feature based assignments. Things go very smooth here.
    Everyone knows their place and what the other guys are doing to keep it
    all in sync.


    If I had a tool that I could tell it what I wanted then we would be in programming
    nirvana right Joe? But then again, when that day comes I could probably
    make more money at your local MickeyDs or TacoBell than as an engineer.

  10. #10
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    Ted,

    How do you use UML in a modified XP methodology?

    Which bits of XP do you use and which have you dropped? Why?

    I take it that UML is used in place of CRC Cards. Do you use all of UML?

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd




  11. #11
    Mike McCann Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    Anthony,

    "Anthony Jones" <yadayadayada@msn.com> wrote in message
    news:3ba627b6@news.devx.com...
    > Ted,
    >
    > How do you use UML in a modified XP methodology?
    >
    > Which bits of XP do you use and which have you dropped? Why?
    >
    > I take it that UML is used in place of CRC Cards. Do you use all of UML?
    >

    I found this approach interesting.

    http://www.rational.com/media/products/rup/tp183.pdf

    Mike



  12. #12
    Ted Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?


    One thing that we don't adhere to is the simple design and user stories.
    We still go through formal design still on 1 - 2 week schedules. If it can't
    be designed in that time frame, we break down the tasks even more or rethink
    the deliverable.

    We don't use all of UML. We do pair design also. This has led to what we
    feel is better design in the long run. Also, pair programming is optional
    but design is not. I think we can find anyone to write code but to find
    good design skills, well that is another story.
    "Anthony Jones" <yadayadayada@msn.com> wrote:
    >Ted,
    >
    >How do you use UML in a modified XP methodology?
    >
    >Which bits of XP do you use and which have you dropped? Why?
    >
    >I take it that UML is used in place of CRC Cards. Do you use all of UML?
    >
    >--
    >Anthony Jones
    >Nuesoft Ltd
    >
    >
    >



  13. #13
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?

    >We still go through formal design still on 1 - 2 week schedules.

    What is delivered at the end of the 1 - 2 weeks, a design or unit tested
    code?

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Nuesoft Ltd




  14. #14
    Ted Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?


    "Anthony Jones" <yadayadayada@msn.com> wrote:
    >>We still go through formal design still on 1 - 2 week schedules.

    >
    >What is delivered at the end of the 1 - 2 weeks, a design or unit tested
    >code?
    >
    >--
    >Anthony Jones
    >Nuesoft Ltd
    >


    It depends on what phase we are in. Sometimes we have smaller projects going
    on around large releases that may provide UT code. Right now we are in a
    re-arch stage and iterations and deliverables(features) consist only of design.
    The scenario would something to the effect of - "User Story = User needs
    to click a button". Instead of that feature being acceptance tested at the
    end of an iteration, the design of the "very" high level abstract design
    is delivered and scrutinized much in the way that the feature itself would
    be.




  15. #15
    Nasser Guest

    Re: Do you find UML useful?


    "Eli" <eli_meso@inter.net.il> wrote:
    >I am getting heavily involved learning UML. In theory it makes a lot of
    >sense that using UML will help in at least two very important areas of
    >software development:
    >1) Understanding clearly exactly what the client wants
    >2) Building a system correct the first time without having to make any
    >corrections and additions afterwards
    >
    >Does anyone have any experience good or bad using UML? Is it really
    >worthwhile spending all the extra time drawing up all different types of
    >diagrams in order to get the system clear before starting?
    >
    >TIA
    >--
    >Eli
    >
    >
    >


    UML !!!

    UML is much power full, it is a way of modling real things, it differ alot
    from ERD and FD ... in modling the METHODS ...

    it is very nice and if do it in a good way and if u spend more time in doing
    and emlementing it u will save the time !!! yah it is ...

    But do I realy need all of those theoritical descriptions in modling ...

    as I know we don't need all of them ...

    we need a sequence daigram and class daigram ... sequence daigrams are for
    documentation and giving descriptions of ur classes ...

    overall

    If u do UML u r saving time and if u didn't do it u will loss some or alot
    of times in correctting things and doing things again and again all the times
    !!!!

    thanks>




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