Re: Bitten by the ASP

[Keith Franklin, MCSD]

Aaron,

I just read this article and it makes me ill....

With articles like this (and the other articles written by Mr Cooper...And
others in Enterprise Development and JavaPro) it is easy to see why some
people (especially in the press) state that ASP and VB cant scale and
perform poorly. Same people that state that J2EE is the way the majority of
the development world is building Web apps...(You show me where you can find
decent Java talent...That can also communicate with humans...They are very
rare...But I guess in the UNIX world communication and clarity isnt that
important)

It is very easy for Mr Cooper to ignore features and tools used in ASP based
development. He goes into elaborate discussion of calling an external
function from ASP and JSP. Totally ignoring the IIS5 Server.Execute
functions....

By the way what in the world is he talking about with the following:

"If you do not have execute access to the server machine, you need to use a
much longer invocation of the CreateObject() method, which includes the long
registry number generated during the compile step. This is a bit error
prone, I'm afraid, but you can do it. "

Isnt the following a good thing: (If after deployment I decide that C++
would have been a better choice for performance reasons...I leave the ASP
alone and deploy a new C++ DLL)...Can you do that with a JSP

"I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
JSP-bean routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned
them in my first column. "

Who is the Technical Editor.....

"VB and Visual C++ also provide a third approach called WebClass objects,
which seems to provide a more intimate link between browser-generated events
and the server-side data. However, from what I can glean, this approach is
neither platform- nor browser-independent. "

First off WebClass is a VB only thing and yes is not platform
independent.......Oh isnt that just horrible...Not
And WebClasses are just as Browser independent as any server side HTML
generating environment...ASP, JSP, Servlets, CGI, Cold Fusion, or Hand Coded
HTML...

Oh I guess we should have Scooby Do look into the mysteries of the registry.
Not to mention how hard those VB DLL's are to write....I shiver with fright
with the difficulty

"They are cross-platform, object-oriented solutions and are not dependent on
mysteries like the Windows Registry. JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy to
write, the ActiveX DLLs are a much lower-level solution that is not
cross-platform, and if improperly written, can be a source of server
instability. "

Yup doing ASP in an effective and high performance manner that can scale
takes forever and requires a rocket scientist...But JSP can be done in a few
hours in the evening by a Monkey and his TRS80 (After all its cross
platform)

"But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can learn almost
all you need to know to write effective JSP pages in an afternoon, or at
least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages evolved over time
from a fairly simple system to one of much more complexity, they have many
more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can consume quite a bit
more time. More than anything else, it is this learning curve that makes me
happy to continue to recommend using JSP whenever the server system allows
it. "


What a joke .... How much is Sun paying this guy....Dont need to worry about
Oracle investigating him


--
Keith Franklin, MCSD
Senior Solution Developer Achitect
ka_franklin@empowered.com

Empowered Software Solutions, Inc.
Microsoft Certified Solution Provider
www.empowered.com






<Aaron Sevivas> wrote in message news:395ccc6e$1@news.devx.com...
>
> I want you Vb people to read this. Isn't one of the editors here from
Fawcette?
> Next time you see James Cooper, please tell him I said "ugh.."
>
> "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
JSP-bean
> routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned them in my
> first column. "
>
> Disconnected? Asp pages and their COM objects that they call can run in
> the same inetinfo.exe process if the ASP is run within the same
transaction.
> How is this disconnected (the library is run "in-process"!)
>
> "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are single-threaded only."
> They are apartment threaded #1, #2, in the real world, all your COM dlls
> are run in MTS and not as non-mts DLLS.. so threading has absolutely
NOTHING
> to do with it (MTS starts a new thread for each object instantiation
irregardless
> of the petty tool, Vb or Vc++ or c# or KMART's QBasic COM creator..) and
> even if they were non-MTS dll's, you can have the dll be multi-use for
multiple
> users! ugh..
>
> ". When a user accesses a JSP page, a Session object is created
automatically"
> You call this a feature! Ugh! Think of a thousand concurrent
connections..
> A thousand session objects! Ugh..At least ASP allows you to make this a
> design decision..
>
> "JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy to write, the ActiveX DLLs are a
much
> lower-level solution that is not cross-platform, and if improperly
written,
> can be a source of server instability. "
>
> Let me say, when I read this statement, I had to sit back and take a deep
> breath.. Java beans are robust and ActiveX DLLs are low-level and a
source
> of instability.. To say that this is an ignorant statement would be like
> saying its a little warm on the surface of the sun. So, JavaBeans, when
> IMPROPERLY written are robust and contribute stability to your server..
ugh...
> Do you read what you write before posting this stuff? Its quite clear your
> a JavaBean fan and have no experience in developing ASP apps in the real
> world so how can you write an article comparing the two unless you just
want
> to ridicule the opposing technology..ugh .. Let me end this message by
saying..
> ugh..
>
> ugh.. I cant believe DevX published this article..

[Robert Gelb]

He writes that "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are
single-threaded only. This means that only one user at a time can get access
to the DLL. If you want to use a multithreaded architecture for larger
servers with many users, you have to write "

That's not true, is it? I thought that apartment threading model allows
multiple users to get access to a DLL and each get its own thread. Is my
assumption correct?
--
Robert Gelb

"Keith Franklin, MCSD" <ka_franklin@empowered.com> wrote in message
news:395d54d9@news.devx.com...
> Aaron,
>
> I just read this article and it makes me ill....
>
> With articles like this (and the other articles written by Mr Cooper...And
> others in Enterprise Development and JavaPro) it is easy to see why some
> people (especially in the press) state that ASP and VB cant scale and
> perform poorly. Same people that state that J2EE is the way the majority
of
> the development world is building Web apps...(You show me where you can
find
> decent Java talent...That can also communicate with humans...They are very
> rare...But I guess in the UNIX world communication and clarity isnt that
> important)
>
> It is very easy for Mr Cooper to ignore features and tools used in ASP
based
> development. He goes into elaborate discussion of calling an external
> function from ASP and JSP. Totally ignoring the IIS5 Server.Execute
> functions....
>
> By the way what in the world is he talking about with the following:
>
> "If you do not have execute access to the server machine, you need to use
a
> much longer invocation of the CreateObject() method, which includes the
long
> registry number generated during the compile step. This is a bit error
> prone, I'm afraid, but you can do it. "
>
> Isnt the following a good thing: (If after deployment I decide that C++
> would have been a better choice for performance reasons...I leave the ASP
> alone and deploy a new C++ DLL)...Can you do that with a JSP
>
> "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> JSP-bean routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned
> them in my first column. "
>
> Who is the Technical Editor.....
>
> "VB and Visual C++ also provide a third approach called WebClass objects,
> which seems to provide a more intimate link between browser-generated
events
> and the server-side data. However, from what I can glean, this approach is
> neither platform- nor browser-independent. "
>
> First off WebClass is a VB only thing and yes is not platform
> independent.......Oh isnt that just horrible...Not
> And WebClasses are just as Browser independent as any server side HTML
> generating environment...ASP, JSP, Servlets, CGI, Cold Fusion, or Hand
Coded
> HTML...
>
> Oh I guess we should have Scooby Do look into the mysteries of the
registry.
> Not to mention how hard those VB DLL's are to write....I shiver with
fright
> with the difficulty
>
> "They are cross-platform, object-oriented solutions and are not dependent
on
> mysteries like the Windows Registry. JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy
to
> write, the ActiveX DLLs are a much lower-level solution that is not
> cross-platform, and if improperly written, can be a source of server
> instability. "
>
> Yup doing ASP in an effective and high performance manner that can scale
> takes forever and requires a rocket scientist...But JSP can be done in a
few
> hours in the evening by a Monkey and his TRS80 (After all its cross
> platform)
>
> "But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can learn
almost
> all you need to know to write effective JSP pages in an afternoon, or at
> least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages evolved over
time
> from a fairly simple system to one of much more complexity, they have many
> more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can consume quite a
bit
> more time. More than anything else, it is this learning curve that makes
me
> happy to continue to recommend using JSP whenever the server system allows
> it. "
>
>
> What a joke .... How much is Sun paying this guy....Dont need to worry
about
> Oracle investigating him
>
>
> --
> Keith Franklin, MCSD
> Senior Solution Developer Achitect
> ka_franklin@empowered.com
>
> Empowered Software Solutions, Inc.
> Microsoft Certified Solution Provider
> www.empowered.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Aaron Sevivas> wrote in message news:395ccc6e$1@news.devx.com...
> >
> > I want you Vb people to read this. Isn't one of the editors here from
> Fawcette?
> > Next time you see James Cooper, please tell him I said "ugh.."
> >
> > "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> JSP-bean
> > routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned them in
my
> > first column. "
> >
> > Disconnected? Asp pages and their COM objects that they call can run in
> > the same inetinfo.exe process if the ASP is run within the same
> transaction.
> > How is this disconnected (the library is run "in-process"!)
> >
> > "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are single-threaded only."
> > They are apartment threaded #1, #2, in the real world, all your COM dlls
> > are run in MTS and not as non-mts DLLS.. so threading has absolutely
> NOTHING
> > to do with it (MTS starts a new thread for each object instantiation
> irregardless
> > of the petty tool, Vb or Vc++ or c# or KMART's QBasic COM creator..) and
> > even if they were non-MTS dll's, you can have the dll be multi-use for
> multiple
> > users! ugh..
> >
> > ". When a user accesses a JSP page, a Session object is created
> automatically"
> > You call this a feature! Ugh! Think of a thousand concurrent
> connections..
> > A thousand session objects! Ugh..At least ASP allows you to make this a
> > design decision..
> >
> > "JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy to write, the ActiveX DLLs are a
> much
> > lower-level solution that is not cross-platform, and if improperly
> written,
> > can be a source of server instability. "
> >
> > Let me say, when I read this statement, I had to sit back and take a
deep
> > breath.. Java beans are robust and ActiveX DLLs are low-level and a
> source
> > of instability.. To say that this is an ignorant statement would be like
> > saying its a little warm on the surface of the sun. So, JavaBeans, when
> > IMPROPERLY written are robust and contribute stability to your server..
> ugh...
> > Do you read what you write before posting this stuff? Its quite clear
your
> > a JavaBean fan and have no experience in developing ASP apps in the real
> > world so how can you write an article comparing the two unless you just
> want
> > to ridicule the opposing technology..ugh .. Let me end this message by
> saying..
> > ugh..
> >
> > ugh.. I cant believe DevX published this article..
>
>

[Keith Franklin, MCSD]

It is 100% false...


"Robert Gelb" <robertgelbNOSPAMFORME@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message
news:395d83fc$1@news.devx.com...
> He writes that "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are
> single-threaded only. This means that only one user at a time can get
access
> to the DLL. If you want to use a multithreaded architecture for larger
> servers with many users, you have to write "
>
> That's not true, is it? I thought that apartment threading model allows
> multiple users to get access to a DLL and each get its own thread. Is my
> assumption correct?
> --
> Robert Gelb
>
> "Keith Franklin, MCSD" <ka_franklin@empowered.com> wrote in message
> news:395d54d9@news.devx.com...
> > Aaron,
> >
> > I just read this article and it makes me ill....
> >
> > With articles like this (and the other articles written by Mr
Cooper...And
> > others in Enterprise Development and JavaPro) it is easy to see why some
> > people (especially in the press) state that ASP and VB cant scale and
> > perform poorly. Same people that state that J2EE is the way the
majority
> of
> > the development world is building Web apps...(You show me where you can
> find
> > decent Java talent...That can also communicate with humans...They are
very
> > rare...But I guess in the UNIX world communication and clarity isnt that
> > important)
> >
> > It is very easy for Mr Cooper to ignore features and tools used in ASP
> based
> > development. He goes into elaborate discussion of calling an external
> > function from ASP and JSP. Totally ignoring the IIS5 Server.Execute
> > functions....
> >
> > By the way what in the world is he talking about with the following:
> >
> > "If you do not have execute access to the server machine, you need to
use
> a
> > much longer invocation of the CreateObject() method, which includes the
> long
> > registry number generated during the compile step. This is a bit error
> > prone, I'm afraid, but you can do it. "
> >
> > Isnt the following a good thing: (If after deployment I decide that C++
> > would have been a better choice for performance reasons...I leave the
ASP
> > alone and deploy a new C++ DLL)...Can you do that with a JSP
> >
> > "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> > JSP-bean routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned
> > them in my first column. "
> >
> > Who is the Technical Editor.....
> >
> > "VB and Visual C++ also provide a third approach called WebClass
objects,
> > which seems to provide a more intimate link between browser-generated
> events
> > and the server-side data. However, from what I can glean, this approach
is
> > neither platform- nor browser-independent. "
> >
> > First off WebClass is a VB only thing and yes is not platform
> > independent.......Oh isnt that just horrible...Not
> > And WebClasses are just as Browser independent as any server side HTML
> > generating environment...ASP, JSP, Servlets, CGI, Cold Fusion, or Hand
> Coded
> > HTML...
> >
> > Oh I guess we should have Scooby Do look into the mysteries of the
> registry.
> > Not to mention how hard those VB DLL's are to write....I shiver with
> fright
> > with the difficulty
> >
> > "They are cross-platform, object-oriented solutions and are not
dependent
> on
> > mysteries like the Windows Registry. JavaBeans are robust and fairly
easy
> to
> > write, the ActiveX DLLs are a much lower-level solution that is not
> > cross-platform, and if improperly written, can be a source of server
> > instability. "
> >
> > Yup doing ASP in an effective and high performance manner that can scale
> > takes forever and requires a rocket scientist...But JSP can be done in a
> few
> > hours in the evening by a Monkey and his TRS80 (After all its cross
> > platform)
> >
> > "But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can learn
> almost
> > all you need to know to write effective JSP pages in an afternoon, or at
> > least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages evolved over
> time
> > from a fairly simple system to one of much more complexity, they have
many
> > more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can consume quite a
> bit
> > more time. More than anything else, it is this learning curve that makes
> me
> > happy to continue to recommend using JSP whenever the server system
allows
> > it. "
> >
> >
> > What a joke .... How much is Sun paying this guy....Dont need to worry
> about
> > Oracle investigating him
> >
> >
> > --
> > Keith Franklin, MCSD
> > Senior Solution Developer Achitect
> > ka_franklin@empowered.com
> >
> > Empowered Software Solutions, Inc.
> > Microsoft Certified Solution Provider
> > www.empowered.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <Aaron Sevivas> wrote in message news:395ccc6e$1@news.devx.com...
> > >
> > > I want you Vb people to read this. Isn't one of the editors here from
> > Fawcette?
> > > Next time you see James Cooper, please tell him I said "ugh.."
> > >
> > > "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> > JSP-bean
> > > routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned them
in
> my
> > > first column. "
> > >
> > > Disconnected? Asp pages and their COM objects that they call can run
in
> > > the same inetinfo.exe process if the ASP is run within the same
> > transaction.
> > > How is this disconnected (the library is run "in-process"!)
> > >
> > > "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are single-threaded only."
> > > They are apartment threaded #1, #2, in the real world, all your COM
dlls
> > > are run in MTS and not as non-mts DLLS.. so threading has absolutely
> > NOTHING
> > > to do with it (MTS starts a new thread for each object instantiation
> > irregardless
> > > of the petty tool, Vb or Vc++ or c# or KMART's QBasic COM creator..)
and
> > > even if they were non-MTS dll's, you can have the dll be multi-use for
> > multiple
> > > users! ugh..
> > >
> > > ". When a user accesses a JSP page, a Session object is created
> > automatically"
> > > You call this a feature! Ugh! Think of a thousand concurrent
> > connections..
> > > A thousand session objects! Ugh..At least ASP allows you to make this
a
> > > design decision..
> > >
> > > "JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy to write, the ActiveX DLLs are a
> > much
> > > lower-level solution that is not cross-platform, and if improperly
> > written,
> > > can be a source of server instability. "
> > >
> > > Let me say, when I read this statement, I had to sit back and take a
> deep
> > > breath.. Java beans are robust and ActiveX DLLs are low-level and a
> > source
> > > of instability.. To say that this is an ignorant statement would be
like
> > > saying its a little warm on the surface of the sun. So, JavaBeans,
when
> > > IMPROPERLY written are robust and contribute stability to your
server..
> > ugh...
> > > Do you read what you write before posting this stuff? Its quite clear
> your
> > > a JavaBean fan and have no experience in developing ASP apps in the
real
> > > world so how can you write an article comparing the two unless you
just
> > want
> > > to ridicule the opposing technology..ugh .. Let me end this message
by
> > saying..
> > > ugh..
> > >
> > > ugh.. I cant believe DevX published this article..
> >
> >
>
>

[Rick Strahl]

"Keith Franklin, MCSD" <ka_franklin@empowered.com> wrote:
>It is 100% false...

Sorry pal, you're 100% WRONG...

Apartment Model threading can start up multiple instances of a COM component
on separate threads and execute them simultaneously.

If you don't believe it write a component that waits or runs in a loop for
a while, then instantiate it from multiple separate browser instances in
an ASP page...

Obviously, you haven't taken the time to do that. That waht they teach you
in those MXSD examns?

+++ Rick ---

Rick Strahl
West Wind Technologies
http://www.west-wind.com/
-------------------------
Making waves on the Web
with Visual FoxPro

[Phil Weber]

> Sorry pal, you're 100% WRONG...

Rick: I believe Keith was taking issue with James Cooper's statement that
DLLs created in VB are single-threaded. In other words, he agrees with you.
Chill.
---
Phil Weber

[Keith Franklin, MCSD]

Rick,

I was disagreeing with the author who stated that VB DLL's are single
threaded only...Read the thread...

In fact in the August VBPJ I have an articke dealing with this stuff in
relation to ASP and WebClass applications....


Later

"Rick Strahl" <rstrahl@west-wind.com> wrote in message
news:3962efb3$1@news.devx.com...
>
> "Keith Franklin, MCSD" <ka_franklin@empowered.com> wrote:
> >It is 100% false...
>
> Sorry pal, you're 100% WRONG...
>
> Apartment Model threading can start up multiple instances of a COM
component
> on separate threads and execute them simultaneously.
>
> If you don't believe it write a component that waits or runs in a loop for
> a while, then instantiate it from multiple separate browser instances in
> an ASP page...
>
> Obviously, you haven't taken the time to do that. That waht they teach you
> in those MXSD examns?
>
> +++ Rick ---
>
> Rick Strahl
> West Wind Technologies
> http://www.west-wind.com/
> -------------------------
> Making waves on the Web
> with Visual FoxPro
>
>

[Tomas]

>"But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can >learn almost
all you need to know to write effective JSP pages >in an afternoon, or at
>least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages >evolved over
time from a fairly simple system to one of much >more complexity, they have
many
>more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can >consume quite
a bit more time. More than anything else, it is >this learning curve that
makes me happy to continue to >recommend using JSP whenever the server system
allowsit. "

VBScript & ASP is too tough? Are these the same people who were calling the
real VB programmers "girly men" for not using C++?
This is a good one...

Tomas

[mark]

This idiot must have read one of the "learn JSP in twenty minutes” books..
If you can learn Java in a day or two why are there many companies that cannot
find good JSP or JavaScript programmers and are willing to pay 60 to 80K
per year? **** I wish it were really that easy, I already am proficient at
JavaScript and it took me several months to get up to speed, I could probably
learn JSP in ten minutes or so! HAHA (It took about the same time to come
up to speed on ASP, as I learned them both at about the same time. They aren't
that different to a programmer familiar with Visual Basic and C,C++.)

Why aren’t there many many JSP programmers if JSP is so **** easy and good?

Mark


"Tomas" <nomail@nomail.com> wrote:
>
>>"But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can >learn
almost
>all you need to know to write effective JSP pages >in an afternoon, or at
>>least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages >evolved over
>time from a fairly simple system to one of much >more complexity, they have
>many
>>more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can >consume quite
>a bit more time. More than anything else, it is >this learning curve that
>makes me happy to continue to >recommend using JSP whenever the server system
>allowsit. "
>
>VBScript & ASP is too tough? Are these the same people who were calling
the
>real VB programmers "girly men" for not using C++?
>This is a good one...
>
>Tomas
>

[Mike]

>With articles like this (and the other articles written by Mr Cooper...And



You guys don't get it, do you?

Cooper demonstrated what he DID know about JavaScript, ASP, and VBScript,
and how they compare.

I am absolutely convinced what he does know was learned in a day. That can
be the only excuse for his statements.

[Chris Kinsman]

Which article is this? Sounds like it is full of hoeey...

"Keith Franklin, MCSD" <ka_franklin@empowered.com> wrote in message
news:395d54d9@news.devx.com...
> Aaron,
>
> I just read this article and it makes me ill....
>
> With articles like this (and the other articles written by Mr Cooper...And
> others in Enterprise Development and JavaPro) it is easy to see why some
> people (especially in the press) state that ASP and VB cant scale and
> perform poorly. Same people that state that J2EE is the way the majority
of
> the development world is building Web apps...(You show me where you can
find
> decent Java talent...That can also communicate with humans...They are very
> rare...But I guess in the UNIX world communication and clarity isnt that
> important)
>
> It is very easy for Mr Cooper to ignore features and tools used in ASP
based
> development. He goes into elaborate discussion of calling an external
> function from ASP and JSP. Totally ignoring the IIS5 Server.Execute
> functions....
>
> By the way what in the world is he talking about with the following:
>
> "If you do not have execute access to the server machine, you need to use
a
> much longer invocation of the CreateObject() method, which includes the
long
> registry number generated during the compile step. This is a bit error
> prone, I'm afraid, but you can do it. "
>
> Isnt the following a good thing: (If after deployment I decide that C++
> would have been a better choice for performance reasons...I leave the ASP
> alone and deploy a new C++ DLL)...Can you do that with a JSP
>
> "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> JSP-bean routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned
> them in my first column. "
>
> Who is the Technical Editor.....
>
> "VB and Visual C++ also provide a third approach called WebClass objects,
> which seems to provide a more intimate link between browser-generated
events
> and the server-side data. However, from what I can glean, this approach is
> neither platform- nor browser-independent. "
>
> First off WebClass is a VB only thing and yes is not platform
> independent.......Oh isnt that just horrible...Not
> And WebClasses are just as Browser independent as any server side HTML
> generating environment...ASP, JSP, Servlets, CGI, Cold Fusion, or Hand
Coded
> HTML...
>
> Oh I guess we should have Scooby Do look into the mysteries of the
registry.
> Not to mention how hard those VB DLL's are to write....I shiver with
fright
> with the difficulty
>
> "They are cross-platform, object-oriented solutions and are not dependent
on
> mysteries like the Windows Registry. JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy
to
> write, the ActiveX DLLs are a much lower-level solution that is not
> cross-platform, and if improperly written, can be a source of server
> instability. "
>
> Yup doing ASP in an effective and high performance manner that can scale
> takes forever and requires a rocket scientist...But JSP can be done in a
few
> hours in the evening by a Monkey and his TRS80 (After all its cross
> platform)
>
> "But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can learn
almost
> all you need to know to write effective JSP pages in an afternoon, or at
> least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages evolved over
time
> from a fairly simple system to one of much more complexity, they have many
> more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can consume quite a
bit
> more time. More than anything else, it is this learning curve that makes
me
> happy to continue to recommend using JSP whenever the server system allows
> it. "
>
>
> What a joke .... How much is Sun paying this guy....Dont need to worry
about
> Oracle investigating him
>
>
> --
> Keith Franklin, MCSD
> Senior Solution Developer Achitect
> ka_franklin@empowered.com
>
> Empowered Software Solutions, Inc.
> Microsoft Certified Solution Provider
> www.empowered.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Aaron Sevivas> wrote in message news:395ccc6e$1@news.devx.com...
> >
> > I want you Vb people to read this. Isn't one of the editors here from
> Fawcette?
> > Next time you see James Cooper, please tell him I said "ugh.."
> >
> > "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> JSP-bean
> > routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned them in
my
> > first column. "
> >
> > Disconnected? Asp pages and their COM objects that they call can run in
> > the same inetinfo.exe process if the ASP is run within the same
> transaction.
> > How is this disconnected (the library is run "in-process"!)
> >
> > "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are single-threaded only."
> > They are apartment threaded #1, #2, in the real world, all your COM dlls
> > are run in MTS and not as non-mts DLLS.. so threading has absolutely
> NOTHING
> > to do with it (MTS starts a new thread for each object instantiation
> irregardless
> > of the petty tool, Vb or Vc++ or c# or KMART's QBasic COM creator..) and
> > even if they were non-MTS dll's, you can have the dll be multi-use for
> multiple
> > users! ugh..
> >
> > ". When a user accesses a JSP page, a Session object is created
> automatically"
> > You call this a feature! Ugh! Think of a thousand concurrent
> connections..
> > A thousand session objects! Ugh..At least ASP allows you to make this a
> > design decision..
> >
> > "JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy to write, the ActiveX DLLs are a
> much
> > lower-level solution that is not cross-platform, and if improperly
> written,
> > can be a source of server instability. "
> >
> > Let me say, when I read this statement, I had to sit back and take a
deep
> > breath.. Java beans are robust and ActiveX DLLs are low-level and a
> source
> > of instability.. To say that this is an ignorant statement would be like
> > saying its a little warm on the surface of the sun. So, JavaBeans, when
> > IMPROPERLY written are robust and contribute stability to your server..
> ugh...
> > Do you read what you write before posting this stuff? Its quite clear
your
> > a JavaBean fan and have no experience in developing ASP apps in the real
> > world so how can you write an article comparing the two unless you just
> want
> > to ridicule the opposing technology..ugh .. Let me end this message by
> saying..
> > ugh..
> >
> > ugh.. I cant believe DevX published this article..
>
>

[Chris Kinsman]

Your assumption is correct. Alan is wrong in this case.
"Robert Gelb" <robertgelbNOSPAMFORME@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message
news:395d83fc$1@news.devx.com...
> He writes that "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are
> single-threaded only. This means that only one user at a time can get
access
> to the DLL. If you want to use a multithreaded architecture for larger
> servers with many users, you have to write "
>
> That's not true, is it? I thought that apartment threading model allows
> multiple users to get access to a DLL and each get its own thread. Is my
> assumption correct?
> --
> Robert Gelb
>
> "Keith Franklin, MCSD" <ka_franklin@empowered.com> wrote in message
> news:395d54d9@news.devx.com...
> > Aaron,
> >
> > I just read this article and it makes me ill....
> >
> > With articles like this (and the other articles written by Mr
Cooper...And
> > others in Enterprise Development and JavaPro) it is easy to see why some
> > people (especially in the press) state that ASP and VB cant scale and
> > perform poorly. Same people that state that J2EE is the way the
majority
> of
> > the development world is building Web apps...(You show me where you can
> find
> > decent Java talent...That can also communicate with humans...They are
very
> > rare...But I guess in the UNIX world communication and clarity isnt that
> > important)
> >
> > It is very easy for Mr Cooper to ignore features and tools used in ASP
> based
> > development. He goes into elaborate discussion of calling an external
> > function from ASP and JSP. Totally ignoring the IIS5 Server.Execute
> > functions....
> >
> > By the way what in the world is he talking about with the following:
> >
> > "If you do not have execute access to the server machine, you need to
use
> a
> > much longer invocation of the CreateObject() method, which includes the
> long
> > registry number generated during the compile step. This is a bit error
> > prone, I'm afraid, but you can do it. "
> >
> > Isnt the following a good thing: (If after deployment I decide that C++
> > would have been a better choice for performance reasons...I leave the
ASP
> > alone and deploy a new C++ DLL)...Can you do that with a JSP
> >
> > "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> > JSP-bean routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned
> > them in my first column. "
> >
> > Who is the Technical Editor.....
> >
> > "VB and Visual C++ also provide a third approach called WebClass
objects,
> > which seems to provide a more intimate link between browser-generated
> events
> > and the server-side data. However, from what I can glean, this approach
is
> > neither platform- nor browser-independent. "
> >
> > First off WebClass is a VB only thing and yes is not platform
> > independent.......Oh isnt that just horrible...Not
> > And WebClasses are just as Browser independent as any server side HTML
> > generating environment...ASP, JSP, Servlets, CGI, Cold Fusion, or Hand
> Coded
> > HTML...
> >
> > Oh I guess we should have Scooby Do look into the mysteries of the
> registry.
> > Not to mention how hard those VB DLL's are to write....I shiver with
> fright
> > with the difficulty
> >
> > "They are cross-platform, object-oriented solutions and are not
dependent
> on
> > mysteries like the Windows Registry. JavaBeans are robust and fairly
easy
> to
> > write, the ActiveX DLLs are a much lower-level solution that is not
> > cross-platform, and if improperly written, can be a source of server
> > instability. "
> >
> > Yup doing ASP in an effective and high performance manner that can scale
> > takes forever and requires a rocket scientist...But JSP can be done in a
> few
> > hours in the evening by a Monkey and his TRS80 (After all its cross
> > platform)
> >
> > "But the single greatest distinction I've found is that you can learn
> almost
> > all you need to know to write effective JSP pages in an afternoon, or at
> > least in a day or so. However, probably because ASP pages evolved over
> time
> > from a fairly simple system to one of much more complexity, they have
many
> > more layers of detail. Learning how to use ASP pages can consume quite a
> bit
> > more time. More than anything else, it is this learning curve that makes
> me
> > happy to continue to recommend using JSP whenever the server system
allows
> > it. "
> >
> >
> > What a joke .... How much is Sun paying this guy....Dont need to worry
> about
> > Oracle investigating him
> >
> >
> > --
> > Keith Franklin, MCSD
> > Senior Solution Developer Achitect
> > ka_franklin@empowered.com
> >
> > Empowered Software Solutions, Inc.
> > Microsoft Certified Solution Provider
> > www.empowered.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <Aaron Sevivas> wrote in message news:395ccc6e$1@news.devx.com...
> > >
> > > I want you Vb people to read this. Isn't one of the editors here from
> > Fawcette?
> > > Next time you see James Cooper, please tell him I said "ugh.."
> > >
> > > "I see the ASP-ActiveX DLL routine as a bit more disconnected than the
> > JSP-bean
> > > routine, but they are commonly used and I should have mentioned them
in
> my
> > > first column. "
> > >
> > > Disconnected? Asp pages and their COM objects that they call can run
in
> > > the same inetinfo.exe process if the ASP is run within the same
> > transaction.
> > > How is this disconnected (the library is run "in-process"!)
> > >
> > > "The ActiveX DLLs generated by Visual Basic are single-threaded only."
> > > They are apartment threaded #1, #2, in the real world, all your COM
dlls
> > > are run in MTS and not as non-mts DLLS.. so threading has absolutely
> > NOTHING
> > > to do with it (MTS starts a new thread for each object instantiation
> > irregardless
> > > of the petty tool, Vb or Vc++ or c# or KMART's QBasic COM creator..)
and
> > > even if they were non-MTS dll's, you can have the dll be multi-use for
> > multiple
> > > users! ugh..
> > >
> > > ". When a user accesses a JSP page, a Session object is created
> > automatically"
> > > You call this a feature! Ugh! Think of a thousand concurrent
> > connections..
> > > A thousand session objects! Ugh..At least ASP allows you to make this
a
> > > design decision..
> > >
> > > "JavaBeans are robust and fairly easy to write, the ActiveX DLLs are a
> > much
> > > lower-level solution that is not cross-platform, and if improperly
> > written,
> > > can be a source of server instability. "
> > >
> > > Let me say, when I read this statement, I had to sit back and take a
> deep
> > > breath.. Java beans are robust and ActiveX DLLs are low-level and a
> > source
> > > of instability.. To say that this is an ignorant statement would be
like
> > > saying its a little warm on the surface of the sun. So, JavaBeans,
when
> > > IMPROPERLY written are robust and contribute stability to your
server..
> > ugh...
> > > Do you read what you write before posting this stuff? Its quite clear
> your
> > > a JavaBean fan and have no experience in developing ASP apps in the
real
> > > world so how can you write an article comparing the two unless you
just
> > want
> > > to ridicule the opposing technology..ugh .. Let me end this message
by
> > saying..
> > > ugh..
> > >
> > > ugh.. I cant believe DevX published this article..
> >
> >
>
>

[Phil Weber]

> Which article is this? Sounds like it is full of hooey...

Chris:

"Bitten by the ASP"

http://www.devx.com/premier/mgznarch...007/jt0007.asp

---
Phil Weber

[Robert Gelb]

Thanks, but you didn't need to quote Encyclopedia Britannica.

--
Robert Gelb

[Paul]

"mark" <mark@afm.netNOSPAM> wrote:

>learn JSP in ten minutes or so! HAHA (It took about the same time to come

JSP is easy if you know ASP and JAVA. I learned it in only 10 minutes, but
I have had 4 years of Java experience, have been working with servlets for
a year and know a little about ASP.

>Why aren’t there many many JSP programmers if JSP is so **** easy and good?


JSP is simply too new, ASP has been around for years and frankly everyone
and their mother knows it, if there were less of you ASPholes around you
might get paid more. In my opinion the only Advantage JSP has over ASP is
porability, it can be run on nearly any system with no rewriting at all,
try that with ASP. The only thing Ive seen ASP on other than IIS is Apache
but the pages need to be rewritten in Perl, it was very lame.

Maybe I'm alone here but I don't like being shackled into a single architecture,
plus I feel betrayed by MS, and dislike using their products emensly.

Paul

[Jim]

To bad you feel betrayed. ASP is great from an Enterprise point of view,
because MS technologies have done much in integrating and leveraging existing
platforms functionality. JSP and J2EE still require proprietary extensions
that do lock you into a platform and vendor in order to leverage existing
systems. You may argue portability all you want, but I don't see that as
an issue.

If you want to access your UNIX apps, it can be done without throwing out
your NT boxes and the speed is just as good because you truly have distributed
the processing. Also, ASP does run on most web server platforms on most
major OS'. Check out ChiliSoft. They have a version for Apache that runs
on IBM AIX that we've used. So simply said, "YOU'RE WRONG!" and haven't
done your homework.

J. Huffer

"Paul" <amanita@amanita-muscaria.com> wrote:
>
>"mark" <mark@afm.netNOSPAM> wrote:
>
>>learn JSP in ten minutes or so! HAHA (It took about the same time to come
>
>JSP is easy if you know ASP and JAVA. I learned it in only 10 minutes,
but
>I have had 4 years of Java experience, have been working with servlets for
>a year and know a little about ASP.
>
>>Why aren’t there many many JSP programmers if JSP is so **** easy and good?
>
>
>JSP is simply too new, ASP has been around for years and frankly everyone
>and their mother knows it, if there were less of you ASPholes around you
>might get paid more. In my opinion the only Advantage JSP has over ASP
is
>porability, it can be run on nearly any system with no rewriting at all,
>try that with ASP. The only thing Ive seen ASP on other than IIS is Apache
>but the pages need to be rewritten in Perl, it was very lame.
>
>Maybe I'm alone here but I don't like being shackled into a single architecture,
>plus I feel betrayed by MS, and dislike using their products emensly.
>
>Paul