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Thread: Re: In favour of certification.

  1. #1
    Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.



    >In the past 25 years I can only remember one project where a lack of
    >understanding of technology was the primary or major cause of failure. The


    >rest of the time it's usually one or more of; requirements defined in jello,


    >impossible schedules, attempts to do the impossible given the resources,

    or
    >poor project planning/documentation.
    >
    >Bob


    You've just named a few of the other classic mistakes that lead to project
    failure. Others are: "Add more people when behind.", "Use no defined development
    methodology.", "Work more overtime", etc. I've worked on these project too.


    I would not limit the scope of certification to vendor products. Project
    management could easily be a "certification" exam also. A good question
    for the exam would be "Name 10 classic mistakes made managing a project"
    . Project managers, and all other positions in IT, could easily benefit
    from certification.

    The industry makes the same mistakes over and over again. The only way I
    see to stop this phenomina is to "educate" people on what we have learned
    as an industry. Manditory certification is the only way I see that we can
    accomplish such a task.

    James

  2. #2
    James Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.


    "Joe Monroe" <yeahright@yeahright.com> wrote:
    >But the people who need to be educated usually aren't on the IT side. The
    >people who need to be educated are the managers on the business side who
    >insist on unreasonable timelines and refuse to take the time to define
    >requirements. Then when IT pushes back, they just go to the higher ups

    who
    >tell IT to just do it. These are the people who need to be educated, and

    no
    >amount of IT certification is going to help them.


    I think I see a falicy Joe. While you make some valid points your conclusion
    does not follow. Discrediting IT certification because it is not going to
    educate higher-ups is non-sensical. There is no relationship between the
    two. I would hope that you can see the benefits of training IT workers,
    regardless of the IQ of management.

    James

  3. #3
    Joe Monroe Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.

    But the people who need to be educated usually aren't on the IT side. The
    people who need to be educated are the managers on the business side who
    insist on unreasonable timelines and refuse to take the time to define
    requirements. Then when IT pushes back, they just go to the higher ups who
    tell IT to just do it. These are the people who need to be educated, and no
    amount of IT certification is going to help them.

    <Idonotgiveout@myemail.com> wrote in message
    news:3c0273c9@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > You've just named a few of the other classic mistakes that lead to project
    > failure. Others are: "Add more people when behind.", "Use no defined

    development
    > methodology.", "Work more overtime", etc. I've worked on these project

    too.
    >
    >
    > I would not limit the scope of certification to vendor products. Project
    > management could easily be a "certification" exam also. A good question
    > for the exam would be "Name 10 classic mistakes made managing a project"
    > . Project managers, and all other positions in IT, could easily benefit
    > from certification.
    >
    > The industry makes the same mistakes over and over again. The only way I
    > see to stop this phenomina is to "educate" people on what we have learned
    > as an industry. Manditory certification is the only way I see that we can
    > accomplish such a task.
    >
    > James




  4. #4
    Joe Monroe Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.

    "James" <dontgiveout@myemail.com> wrote in message
    news:3c028256$1@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > "Joe Monroe" <yeahright@yeahright.com> wrote:
    > >But the people who need to be educated usually aren't on the IT side.

    The
    > >people who need to be educated are the managers on the business side who
    > >insist on unreasonable timelines and refuse to take the time to define
    > >requirements. Then when IT pushes back, they just go to the higher ups

    > who
    > >tell IT to just do it. These are the people who need to be educated, and

    > no
    > >amount of IT certification is going to help them.

    >
    > I think I see a falicy Joe. While you make some valid points your

    conclusion
    > does not follow. Discrediting IT certification because it is not going to
    > educate higher-ups is non-sensical. There is no relationship between the
    > two. I would hope that you can see the benefits of training IT workers,
    > regardless of the IQ of management.


    No, you don't follow. You said:

    "The industry makes the same mistakes over and over again. The only way I
    see to stop this phenomina is to "educate" people on what we have learned as
    an industry. Manditory certification is the only way I see that we can
    accomplish such a task."

    I was pointing out that the cause of these mistakes is not because IT people
    are not educated, but the business-side people are not educated, and no
    amount of IT certification will change that. And if you think it's so easy
    to just push back and say "we can't do that" as you said in your other post,
    you have obviously never worked in the real world.







  5. #5
    James Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.


    And if you think it's so easy
    >to just push back and say "we can't do that" as you said in your other post,
    >you have obviously never worked in the real world.


    As I said before, you make a valid point. Yes some projects will fail because
    management fails to be realisic. I'd be foolish to argue that with you Joe.
    (One a side note, let me ask you "Who's responsibility do you think it is
    to breath some "realism" into managements expectation?")

    But I repeat, it is unrealistic to descredit the benefits of certification
    simply because one cause of failure is management. But then, again, you are
    very adment that:

    >"[...]the cause of these mistakes is not because IT people are not
    >educated, but the business-side people are not educated, and no amount of


    >IT certification will change that."


    So if you truly beleive that the *only* cause of project failure is uneducated
    management and also truly believe there is no benefit to further educating
    people in our industry about best practices, proper design, use of tools,
    etc, then I fully appreciate how you've come to your conclusion.

    As I discussed in my initial thread, I beleive there is a bigger picture:
    project fail for more reasons than "management", IT workers don't know their
    tools, PM haven't learned causes of failure (and from your statements, obviously
    no risk management either), software architects don't know solutions, shoddy
    products are the norm, etc, etc, and I see certification helping to address
    some of these shortcomings. But this is my experience and obviously not
    yours Joe. We simply have differing opinions due to our experience in "the
    real world".

    James

  6. #6
    Joe Monroe Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.

    "James" <dontgiveout@myemail.com> wrote in message
    news:3c041c78$1@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > As I said before, you make a valid point. Yes some projects will fail

    because
    > management fails to be realisic. I'd be foolish to argue that with you

    Joe.
    > (One a side note, let me ask you "Who's responsibility do you think it is
    > to breath some "realism" into managements expectation?")


    There's only so much "realism" you can give them after they've already told
    the client that the project will be done Feb. 1, so now you have to make the
    date or lose the client.

    > But I repeat, it is unrealistic to descredit the benefits of certification
    > simply because one cause of failure is management. But then, again, you

    are
    > very adment that:
    >
    > >"[...]the cause of these mistakes is not because IT people are not
    > >educated, but the business-side people are not educated, and no amount of

    >
    > >IT certification will change that."

    >
    > So if you truly beleive that the *only* cause of project failure is

    uneducated
    > management and also truly believe there is no benefit to further educating
    > people in our industry about best practices, proper design, use of tools,
    > etc, then I fully appreciate how you've come to your conclusion.


    I never said that's the _only_ cause of failure, but in my experience it is
    the primary cause.

    > As I discussed in my initial thread, I beleive there is a bigger picture:
    > project fail for more reasons than "management", IT workers don't know

    their
    > tools, PM haven't learned causes of failure (and from your statements,

    obviously
    > no risk management either), software architects don't know solutions,

    shoddy
    > products are the norm, etc, etc, and I see certification helping to

    address
    > some of these shortcomings. But this is my experience and obviously not
    > yours Joe. We simply have differing opinions due to our experience in

    "the
    > real world".


    Maybe I've just been fortunate to work with competent developers and PMs.
    Yes, there have been a few that were in over their heads, but that's the
    fault of the people who put them in those positions, and certification
    wouldn't have fixed that, at least any of the certifications that are
    available today. Current certifications don't help because they don't
    actually cover what people do in the real world. But even if someone
    develops some that do, it still doesn't remove the responisibility of
    manager or whoever does the hiring to make sure people are qualified for the
    jobs.



  7. #7
    Colin Saxton Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.


    There are a number of factors that can make a software project fail...

    Code *design* and *testing* are the 2 most biggest killers of a project...

    *Listen to what I have to say next*

    The secret to a successful project is to have a *small* team of extremely
    experienced software developers, in the field of the project, who are dedicated
    to unit testing and design of code. Keep each project simple...Complicated
    software products can always be split down to small projects.

    <<<< MAKE SURE THAT EACH DEVELOPER HAS WRITTEN A UNIT TEST FOR *ANY* COMPONENT
    THAT THEY WRITE >>>>

    UNIT TESTS DECREASE DEVELOPMENT TIME AND COSTS...IF YOU HAVE A MANAGER/TEAM
    LEADER THAT DISAGREES THEN THEY ARE DEAD WOOD AND WILL COST YOU MONEY...

    Split large groups of developers into smaller teams and don't put all of
    your best developers into the same team...make them team leaders...That way
    all teams will learn more from their team leader...

    Never have someone become a software manager who has not first worked up
    through the ranks...(THIS IS A GOLDEN RULE AND IS THE BIGGEST CAUSE OF FAILURES
    IN SOFTWARE PROJECTS)...especially do not have software managers who have
    never cut code before...Thats like making someone a pilot of a Jumbo who
    has only flew paper planes!!!

    Make everyone work...Don't let them sit back once they are managers...make
    sure they are doing a good job...if they're not...tell them...if they don't
    pick up get rid of the dead wood...ITS YOUR MONEY.

    PAY DEVELOPERS WHAT THEY ARE WORTH...PROJECT INCENTIVES ARE GREAT!!!!

    Listen to what everyone has to say no matter how new they are...(Tesla was
    told that AC electricity was a pipe dream and that it couldn't be done because
    his so called peers said so??)

    IF A PROJET IS TAKING TOO LONG DO NOT ADD MORE PROGRAMMERS?? LOOK AT THE
    ROOT CAUSE FIRST.

    Certification can be good but it is the basic pronciples and communication
    that make a project work???

    I have worked with post-graduates and "direct from school pupils" when it
    comes to cutting code and I have always found the best programmers are the
    ones that eat,sleep and play coding despite the qualifications they have...

  8. #8
    Markn Guest

    Re: In favour of certification.


    Colin,
    This is all great and true (I think - I speed read). However, if you don't
    include newbies how will they ever become experienced?


    "Colin Saxton" <ccs@efacs.com> wrote:
    >
    >There are a number of factors that can make a software project fail...
    >
    >Code *design* and *testing* are the 2 most biggest killers of a project...
    >
    >*Listen to what I have to say next*
    >
    >The secret to a successful project is to have a *small* team of extremely
    >experienced software developers, in the field of the project, who are dedicated
    >to unit testing and design of code. Keep each project simple...Complicated
    >software products can always be split down to small projects.
    >
    ><<<< MAKE SURE THAT EACH DEVELOPER HAS WRITTEN A UNIT TEST FOR *ANY* COMPONENT
    >THAT THEY WRITE >>>>
    >
    >UNIT TESTS DECREASE DEVELOPMENT TIME AND COSTS...IF YOU HAVE A MANAGER/TEAM
    >LEADER THAT DISAGREES THEN THEY ARE DEAD WOOD AND WILL COST YOU MONEY...
    >
    >Split large groups of developers into smaller teams and don't put all of
    >your best developers into the same team...make them team leaders...That

    way
    >all teams will learn more from their team leader...
    >
    >Never have someone become a software manager who has not first worked up
    >through the ranks...(THIS IS A GOLDEN RULE AND IS THE BIGGEST CAUSE OF FAILURES
    >IN SOFTWARE PROJECTS)...especially do not have software managers who have
    >never cut code before...Thats like making someone a pilot of a Jumbo who
    >has only flew paper planes!!!
    >
    >Make everyone work...Don't let them sit back once they are managers...make
    >sure they are doing a good job...if they're not...tell them...if they don't
    >pick up get rid of the dead wood...ITS YOUR MONEY.
    >
    >PAY DEVELOPERS WHAT THEY ARE WORTH...PROJECT INCENTIVES ARE GREAT!!!!
    >
    >Listen to what everyone has to say no matter how new they are...(Tesla was
    >told that AC electricity was a pipe dream and that it couldn't be done because
    >his so called peers said so??)
    >
    >IF A PROJET IS TAKING TOO LONG DO NOT ADD MORE PROGRAMMERS?? LOOK AT THE
    >ROOT CAUSE FIRST.
    >
    >Certification can be good but it is the basic pronciples and communication
    >that make a project work???
    >
    >I have worked with post-graduates and "direct from school pupils" when it
    >comes to cutting code and I have always found the best programmers are the
    >ones that eat,sleep and play coding despite the qualifications they have...



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