Summary of This Discussion

[Jeff Johnson]

1) The VB community never really wanted to get on the same level as C and
Java.... As a whole VBers are more content writing macros than class modules.

2) VB Developers pretty much have to go to VB.Net. There is no other real
option for them. Chances are they aren't going to lose their reputation
for being inferior to C developers. Chances are they're going to learn C#
after they get comfortable with the .Net framework, anyway, and VB.Net will
bask in obscurity.

3) There are no really compelling reasons for the change-- except to create
a Java killer and to betray a class of people that helped Microsoft become
a success. Microsoft and Fawcette are both taking an opportunity to get
rid of some dead weight. VB support is going to disappear.

4) VBA will probably die. Not Today; not tomorrow; but soon.

5) The language that was 6 million programmers strong is on the verge of
extinction. Our careers are crippled. Nothing makes sense anymore. It
just feels like the past ten years have been a complete waste.

[Ted]

"Jeff Johnson" <johnsonjs@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>1) The VB community never really wanted to get on the same level as C and
>Java.... As a whole VBers are more content writing macros than class modules.
>
>2) VB Developers pretty much have to go to VB.Net. There is no other real
>option for them. Chances are they aren't going to lose their reputation
>for being inferior to C developers. Chances are they're going to learn
C#
>after they get comfortable with the .Net framework, anyway, and VB.Net will
>bask in obscurity.
>
>3) There are no really compelling reasons for the change-- except to create
>a Java killer and to betray a class of people that helped Microsoft become
>a success. Microsoft and Fawcette are both taking an opportunity to get
>rid of some dead weight. VB support is going to disappear.
>
>4) VBA will probably die. Not Today; not tomorrow; but soon.
>
>5) The language that was 6 million programmers strong is on the verge of
>extinction. Our careers are crippled. Nothing makes sense anymore. It
>just feels like the past ten years have been a complete waste.


HOORAY!

[Jason Bock]

"Jeff Johnson" <johnsonjs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b30cdbb$1@news.devx.com...
> 2) VB Developers pretty much have to go to VB.Net. There is no other real
> option for them.

Yes there is. C# is one of them.

> Chances are they aren't going to lose their reputation
> for being inferior to C developers. Chances are they're going to learn C#
> after they get comfortable with the .Net framework, anyway, and VB.Net
will
> bask in obscurity.

I went straight to C# for many reasons. Learning languages is not that
hard. If I need to learn VB.NET in the future I will.

> 5) The language that was 6 million programmers strong is on the verge of
> extinction. Our careers are crippled. Nothing makes sense anymore. It
> just feels like the past ten years have been a complete waste.

That's one view. A lot of things that .NET has make a lot of sense. I'm
personally taking what I've learned after 5 years of development experience
and moving forward. I think a lot of other Windows developers will do the
same.

Regards,

Jason

[Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster]

"Ted" <TTarney@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:3b30d2f1$1@news.devx.com>...

> "Jeff Johnson" <johnsonjs@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >1) The VB community never really wanted to get on the same level as C and
> >Java.... As a whole VBers are more content writing macros than class
> > modules.
> >
> >2) VB Developers pretty much have to go to VB.Net. There is no other real
> >option for them. Chances are they aren't going to lose their reputation
> >for being inferior to C developers. Chances are they're going to learn
> > C#
> >after they get comfortable with the .Net framework, anyway, and VB.Net will
> >bask in obscurity.
> >
> >3) There are no really compelling reasons for the change-- except to create
> >a Java killer and to betray a class of people that helped Microsoft become
> >a success. Microsoft and Fawcette are both taking an opportunity to get
> >rid of some dead weight. VB support is going to disappear.
> >
> >4) VBA will probably die. Not Today; not tomorrow; but soon.
> >
> >5) The language that was 6 million programmers strong is on the verge of
> >extinction. Our careers are crippled. Nothing makes sense anymore. It
> >just feels like the past ten years have been a complete waste.

> HOORAY!

We now return to our regularly scheduled Software Crisis in progress.

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/computing/c.../slides/intro/

Silver bullets soon tarnish! From some "hire me" site:

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~vernonr/Overview.html

--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfoster@ricochet.net> DC8s in Spaace: <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!

[Vlad Ivanov]

Here's my advice to the general public for what it's worth:

Learn just enough to continue happily typing away the code. Just like you
had to when DAO moved to ADO, or VB3 to VB5. So you can resume your normal
activities as a programmer. It's VB6 to VB.Net.

All the people in power, marketeering etc.. who love cool words and acronyms
will be happy - you are doing .Net now and are worth the money they paying
you.

And please don't stress yourself about anything else. Come in, work, and
leave - enjoy your life and don't get all stressed out over earthly crap
like syntax. Let the self-proclaimed superior beings that frequent this newsgroup
contemplate about the "language stabilities", "language consistency" and
other blah. With such an abundance of fearless leaders and mega-minds - me
and you, my dear generic "inferior" newbie programmer without degree, Mr.
Joe Schmoe - well, me and you can just get up at 5 PM, turn off our laptops
and go live our lives. The world is safe in their hands.

Buh bye.

[Mike Mitchell]

On 20 Jun 2001 13:10:07 -0700, "Vlad Ivanov" <nomail@nomail.com>
wrote:

>Learn just enough to continue happily typing away the code. Just like you
>had to when DAO moved to ADO, or VB3 to VB5. So you can resume your normal
>activities as a programmer. It's VB6 to VB.Net.

[snipped the rest]

But that's just saying I might as well work in a factory and nail
widgets to sprockets, or what ever it is they do all day, then take
the money, go home and watch TV. There are plenty of "just" jobs. I
want to spend my time doing something I enjoy, not working with
something which keeps reminding me I've been screwed over.

MM

[Kathleen Dollard]

I think VBA will be around a long time. It is MS's best path to an answer
for the hobbyist programmer. Like SQL, not the best but effective. There is
no reason to kill it. My palm reading sees a very long lifeline there.

--
Kathleen
(MS-MVP)
Reply in the newsgroup so everyone can benefit
--

[Jon Ogden]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@hotmail.com> wrote

> But that's just saying I might as well work in a factory and nail
> widgets to sprockets, or what ever it is they do all day, then take
> the money, go home and watch TV.

Mike, a number of us have been telling you to do that. Are you only now
figuring it out?..by the way, they don't nail widgets to sprockets anymore,
so you still have to learn some new technology.

[Dave Keighan]

Hi Kathleen

> I think VBA will be around a long time.
I don't want to take what your saying here out of context. Is your entire
post (specifically the line below) related only to VBA?

> It is MS's best path to an answer for the hobbyist programmer.
I'd sure like to have seen some figures on how many *hobbyists* use VB. It
has to be a large percentage. Wasn't the original target audience of VB,
hobbyists? I started with VB-DOS after I found QBasic limiting. I moved to
VB3 (and every bloody, start <almost> from scratch, version since) when I
gave up on the "I Hate Windows" movement. Are you suggesting that the tool
for hobbyists is VBA? Do you think that the current path of VB as it evolves
into VB.Net and beyond will move the product away from the *hobbyists* that
were/are a large part of it's current popularity? Why?

Am I reading (a bit) too much into this? Sorry, happens

--
Dave

[Tom]

"Kathleen Dollard" <kathleen@nomailplease.org> wrote in message
news:<3b320206$1@news.devx.com>...
> I think VBA will be around a long time. It is MS's best path to an answer
> for the hobbyist programmer. Like SQL, not the best but effective. There
is
> no reason to kill it. My palm reading sees a very long lifeline there.
>
So, is there a VBA.NET in the Microsoft master plan?

[Jonathan Allen]

I doubt it. From what I've seen, MS is planning on shifting to VSA and
VB.Net for macro programming.

--
Jonathan Allen


"Kathleen Dollard" <kathleen@nomailplease.org> wrote in message
news:3b320206$1@news.devx.com...
> I think VBA will be around a long time. It is MS's best path to an answer
> for the hobbyist programmer. Like SQL, not the best but effective. There
is
> no reason to kill it. My palm reading sees a very long lifeline there.
>
> --
> Kathleen
> (MS-MVP)
> Reply in the newsgroup so everyone can benefit
> --
>
>

[Kathleen Dollard]

Dave,

I don't know what hobbyists will do with VB.Net. IMO, the current
incarnations are a bit much for someone who programs less than 10 hours a
month. I hope to be proven wrong.

VBA, teamed with a tool that is doing part of their work for them, I think
is much more accessible. The object models may be huge, but they have the
macro recorder and the model parallels in some way the work they are already
doing. I have thought it was a better tool than VB6 for hobbyists since
Ofice 97, and don't see this opinion changing with VB.Net.

I hope to heck VBA is around for a very long time. Don't know much about
VSA, but I hope it is an ancillary developer technology, not a replacement
technology.

Just my opinions.
--
Kathleen
(MS-MVP)
Reply in the newsgroup so everyone can benefit
--

[Dave Keighan]

Hi Kathleen

I want to disagree with you, but I can't - insufficient data and a disabled
perspective.

Just going back as far as VB3 for a comparison ... jumping in at VB6 must be
a bit overwhelming to a "hobbyist". In my case I usually waited for a
service pack or two to hit the street before upgrading but it is usual to
spend half of the time between version catching up with what's new in the
one I'm working with. Then VB6 expanded in so many different directions and
depths that I had to decide what I was going to *specialize in*/learn in
VB6. Because of this I've been trying to learn as much as I can about Net
just to decide whether to jump in <again> or stick with what I've got and
keep working with VB6. I figure I'm ready for my VB3 MS Certification though
.... maybe VB5. Yea, that and a buck ...

> a bit much for someone who programs less
> than 10 hours a month.
If this is a hobbyist we've go to come up with more labels, Pro/Hobbyist
just aren't enough I average 80 to 100 hours a month minimum. I develop
tools for work, I just do it on my own (well they pay for VB upgrades/tools
when they want one of my utilities upgraded). No life, just like a real
programmer.

If Net is even remotely likely to shove the *hobbyists* and self starters
out of VB I'm glad I got in 10 years ago. IMHO: Ousting the hobbyists will
have an impact on Vb's user base. It may only be at the Learning and to some
extent the Professional versions (I've been Pro all the way) but it will
have an impact. As to me moving to Net, I'm thinking that if I have to spend
all that time learning again, I'm gonna learn something new.

<TIC>
Look what the bloody *professionals* have done to my programming tool,
you've wrecked it with you're, wanna have this, gotta have that, keeping up
with technology ... what Hexx were you thinking
</TIC>

Thanks for your time.

--
Dave

> I don't know what hobbyists will do with VB.Net. IMO, the current
> incarnations are a bit much for someone who programs less than 10 hours a
> month. I hope to be proven wrong.
>
> VBA, teamed with a tool that is doing part of their work for them, I think
> is much more accessible. The object models may be huge, but they have the
> macro recorder and the model parallels in some way the work they are
already
> doing. I have thought it was a better tool than VB6 for hobbyists since
> Ofice 97, and don't see this opinion changing with VB.Net.
>
> I hope to heck VBA is around for a very long time. Don't know much about
> VSA, but I hope it is an ancillary developer technology, not a replacement
> technology.
>
> Just my opinions.
> --
> Kathleen
> (MS-MVP)
> Reply in the newsgroup so everyone can benefit
> --
>
>

[Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster]

"Kathleen Dollard" <kathleen@nomailplease.org> wrote in message <news:3b33cc37@news.devx.com>...

> Dave,
>
> I don't know what hobbyists will do with VB.Net. IMO, the current
> incarnations are a bit much for someone who programs less than 10 hours a
> month. I hope to be proven wrong.
>
> VBA, teamed with a tool that is doing part of their work for them, I think
> is much more accessible. The object models may be huge, but they have the
> macro recorder and the model parallels in some way the work they are already
> doing. I have thought it was a better tool than VB6 for hobbyists since
> Ofice 97, and don't see this opinion changing with VB.Net.
>
> I hope to heck VBA is around for a very long time. Don't know much about
> VSA, but I hope it is an ancillary developer technology, not a replacement
> technology.

You don't think there's something Difficult about VB.NET, do you? Perhaps
you're merely overestimating your own skills relative to other programmers!

news://news.devx.com/3b3c6387.76198593@news.devx.com

Likely it's only those having any concerns whatsoever about VB.NET, such as
yourself, who will be unable to cope with VB.NET.

news://news.devx.com/3ba37dc0.314350000@news.devx.com

Meanwhile, those lowly "macro programmers" can just wait for their betters
to first have their fill. Keep up or die!

news://news.devx.com/3b436c2a.78409359@news.devx.com

--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfoster@ricochet.net> Auditine Addict <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:35:26 -0700, "Dave Keighan"
<dkeighan@hotmail.com> wrote:

>If Net is even remotely likely to shove the *hobbyists* and self starters
>out of VB I'm glad I got in 10 years ago.

What 'hobbyist' is going to have the resources, hardware-wise and
financially, to get into .NET? Think about the minimum needed to
develop apps in VB6. All you need is Windows (I use Windows 95 at
home, NT 4 at work), and Visual Basic, and you're away. But the huge
amount of extra 'stuff' which is what the .NET framework comprises
means entering a different ball-park altogether. Not to mention
deployment. If I create a VB app at home on Windows 95, I don't have
to spend much time thinking about whether the customer has this
framework or that. As long as he's running any version of Windows 95
or later, my app will run.

MM