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Thread: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

  1. #31
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Jeff,

    >1) Nested curly brackets-- pointless and ugly


    Pointless? Ugly?

    IF THEN
    IF THEN
    ELSE
    ENDIF
    ENDIF


    >2) Use of "<<", "::", "#", ";", "!=" -- all bizarre shorthand


    Not all bizarre shorthand - they are symbols, every programming language
    has them.

    >3) What language does the word "cout" come from??? Is that French? Dutch?
    >Irish??


    That would be Console Out, cin == Console In. Hope that helps.

    >4) The C++ language does not provide a matrix type with an inversion operator
    >or a string type with a concatenation operator.


    So? If you want those sorts of things you can use the standard template
    library or other extensions.

    >5) The downside of the backward compatabilty of the C languages is that the
    >language has never been cleaned up. We are stuck with mediocre decisions
    >made a LONG time ago....


    Hahahah! Be careful what you wish for: Language Instability is a feature
    you wish c++ had?


    >6) The typical line of C++ code expresses a lot more than the average line
    >of Basic. This terseness makes the language opaque.


    No, it makes it more concise and faster to read.

    >7) The comment system is also another example of pointless shorthand. I
    >say, bring back the REM statement!!!


    Troll!

    >8) C was not designed with numerical computation in mind.


    And basic was???



    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  2. #32
    Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    "Zane Thomas" <zane@mabry.com> wrote in message <news:3b694511.20772515@news.devx.com>...

    > Jeff,
    >
    > >1) Nested curly brackets-- pointless and ugly

    >
    > Pointless? Ugly?
    >
    > IF THEN
    > IF THEN
    > ELSE
    > ENDIF
    > ENDIF


    Quick, does that right-curly go with the if, the else, or the for?

    > >2) Use of "<<", "::", "#", ";", "!=" -- all bizarre shorthand

    >
    > Not all bizarre shorthand - they are symbols, every programming language
    > has them.


    So a few more symbols is no big deal? Do you claim you can read APL?

    > >3) What language does the word "cout" come from??? Is that French? Dutch?
    > >Irish??

    >
    > That would be Console Out, cin == Console In. Hope that helps.


    And we've already covered the "Basic has no abbreviations" hoo-hah...

    [stuff I agree with snipped]

    > >6) The typical line of C++ code expresses a lot more than the average line
    > >of Basic. This terseness makes the language opaque.

    >
    > No, it makes it more concise and faster to read.


    Pored through the Obfuscated C archive lately? =)

    > >7) The comment system is also another example of pointless shorthand. I
    > >say, bring back the REM statement!!!

    >
    > Troll!


    IIRC, // and /* */ can introduce ambiguities into the parser.

    > >8) C was not designed with numerical computation in mind.

    >
    > And basic was???


    Basic wasn't designed with GUIs, databases, or polymorphism in mind
    either, and look how that turned out.

    --
    Joe Foster <mailto:jfoster@ricochet.net> Sacrament R2-45 <http://www.xenu.net/>
    WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
    because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!



  3. #33
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Joe,

    >> IF THEN
    >> IF THEN
    >> ELSE
    >> ENDIF
    >> ENDIF

    >
    >Quick, does that right-curly go with the if, the else, or the for?


    What for?


    >> Not all bizarre shorthand - they are symbols, every programming language
    >> has them.

    >
    >So a few more symbols is no big deal?


    I think we're doing fine with the alphanumerics we currently use in
    programming languages, what else did you have in mind?


    >Do you claim you can read APL?


    No, do you?

    >> >6) The typical line of C++ code expresses a lot more than the average line
    >> >of Basic. This terseness makes the language opaque.

    >>
    >> No, it makes it more concise and faster to read.

    >
    >Pored through the Obfuscated C archive lately? =)


    Pored?

    Crappy hard-to-read code can be written in any language.


    >IIRC, // and /* */ can introduce ambiguities into the parser.


    Huh? Parsing doesn't get much easier than those ... unless you want to
    talk about parsing whitespace, in which case there's always '_' to deal
    with.

    >Basic wasn't designed with GUIs, databases, or polymorphism in mind
    >either, and look how that turned out.


    Yep, hacked and extended until not even Dan can stand it anymore.


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  4. #34
    Bob O`Bob Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster wrote:
    > >
    > > Not all bizarre shorthand - they are symbols, every programming language
    > > has them.

    >
    > So a few more symbols is no big deal? Do you claim you can read APL?



    APL is seriously cool - if you're into matrix math or the other esoteric
    stuff it makes easy.

    And there's an APL coming out for .Net, as well.
    I'll probably try to wangle a 'review' copy to play with.


    Bob O`Bob
    --
    I always knew Microsoft had plenty of bullets.
    But I never had any idea it had so many feet.

  5. #35
    Mark Hurd Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    "Larry Serflaten" <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote in message
    news:3b59a3a3$1@news.devx.com...
    >

    <snip>
    >
    > Why duplicate function? Print already handled output to a file, Write

    simply
    > includes the formating needed "so the data can always be read and correctly
    > interpreted using Input".
    >


    An off-topic note: I recently found that VB6's Input doesn't handle a double
    quote encoded as "", but this is what Write produces! I have also tested VB5
    SP3 and it failes too.

    I am really surprised this hasn't been fixed ages ago!

    >
    > LFS





  6. #36
    Jeff Johnson Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric



    Thanks for helping me see the other side of this...

    I don't understand this "Troll" thing, though....

    (#7 was in there just as a joke, but it seems to have made some of the C
    people upset-- can you explain what's going on with this?? When I started
    this thread, I had no idea I was getting into a religious issue...!)



    zane@mabry.com (Zane Thomas) wrote:
    >Jeff,
    >
    >>7) The comment system is also another example of pointless shorthand.

    I
    >>say, bring back the REM statement!!!

    >
    >Troll!



  7. #37
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric



    What bugs me is that with all the important things to discuss about VB, so
    much energy is wasted on line termination ... in C no less. That's just grasping.
    Let it go people. After, like Zane says, every language has line terminators
    and that includes BASIC, which has *2* in fact - CRLF and ":".

    -Rob

    zane@mabry.com (Zane Thomas) wrote:
    >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:53:43 -0400, "Jay King" <pggoldpg@hotmail.com>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>I want a c++ to give me an argument for why a ; after everyline is a good
    >>idea...

    >
    >I can only assume you never read a book on programming language parsers;
    >even english has a line terminator ya know.
    >
    >Every programming language has its characteristics. Some use BEGIN END,
    >some use ((( ))) (or ] if you're lucky <g>), and some use ';' ... what's
    >the big deal?
    >
    >
    >---
    >Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond



  8. #38
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    On 25 Jul 2001 06:17:01 -0700, "Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com>
    wrote:

    >What bugs me is that with all the important things to discuss about VB, so
    >much energy is wasted on line termination ... in C no less.


    Heh, yeah it is pretty silly. Personally I think there are more
    interesting things to do - like learn about SIP and write some code, for
    instance - than argue daily about line termination.


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  9. #39
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Jeff,

    >Thanks for helping me see the other side of this...


    No problem ... sometimes this ng gets pretty pointless with most days
    being spent arguing about which brand of power tools are best, with few
    participants apparently building anything. :-)

    >I don't understand this "Troll" thing, though...


    I thought you were just trolling for flames...

    >(#7 was in there just as a joke ...


    And you were! :-)

    >but it seems to have made some of the C
    >people upset-- can you explain what's going on with this?


    Well, hmmm, I do have a hypothesis about the evolution of religion - but
    that's a topic for the off.ramp.


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  10. #40
    Richard Curzon Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Some day, people well just say "Computer, get me the distance from planet
    six, Alpha Centauri, to Earth at noon GMT January 1, 2001!"

    You won't say... "and while you're doing it, ask me about each heap
    allocation and memory release you make, I want to make sure you do it
    efficiently! I like controlling that sort of thing..."

    Until then, every tool and language is to some degree, arcane. But in the
    year 2001, C++ is way off the pace,

    You run into people who don't see that. Why not just point them to Bjarne
    Stroustrup, who "invented" C++. And who himself is on the record calling
    it's syntax "ugly and illogical". He "had to do it" he says, because a
    design goal of C++ was to compile old C code.

    Once he's said it so well, not much point in anyone else defending it, is
    there?! <g>

    regards
    Richard.

    --
    -----
    Live without dead time - Raoul Vaneigem
    May I borrow your towel, my car just hit a water buffalo - Chevy Chase



  11. #41
    Craig Clearman Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Hi Zane,

    >Heh, yeah it is pretty silly. Personally I think there are more
    >interesting things to do - like learn about SIP


    Are we thinking about the same SIP? Session initiation protocol? If
    so, is this what you do for fun? I see articles about SIP and VoIP and
    immediately skip to the next article. I can't really imagine building
    a component for it.

    Ciao, Craig


  12. #42
    Bob O`Bob Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Craig Clearman wrote:
    >
    > Hi Zane,
    >
    > >Heh, yeah it is pretty silly. Personally I think there are more
    > >interesting things to do - like learn about SIP

    >
    > Are we thinking about the same SIP? Session initiation protocol? If
    > so, is this what you do for fun? I see articles about SIP and VoIP and
    > immediately skip to the next article. I can't really imagine building
    > a component for it.



    ....which is exactly why we _need_ folks like Zane.



    Bob O`Bob
    --
    I always knew Microsoft had plenty of bullets.
    But I never had any idea it had so many feet.

  13. #43
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    Craig,

    >Are we thinking about the same SIP? Session initiation protocol? If
    >so, is this what you do for fun?


    LOL - yep, sorry, that's my idea of fun. :-)

    >I see articles about SIP and VoIP and immediately skip to the
    >next article. I can't really imagine building a component for it.


    Well I don't see investing a lot of time in VoIP given the fact the
    Motorola, Nokia, etc, etc are working on that. However the SIP part of
    things might be interesting.

    SIP is about locating devices and initiating a 'session'. One possible
    sort of session is VoIP, however the protocol is generalized to the point
    where it can be used for other types of sessions - and purposes.

    The current DNS mapping used on the internet was created at a time (1985
    as I recall) when machines were big, didn't move around, there weren't may
    of them, and fixed IP addresses made sense. With the explosion in the
    number of devices, the PC-ness of them, their mobility and things like
    NATs, the DNS system isn't capable of providing the sorts of connectivity
    we need now.

    SIP overlays - on top of the existing DNS - a way of locating machines
    which come and go frequently, and of allowing an individual person to have
    multiple devices with which to communicate over net.

    Current work in this area involves, among other things, the use of SIP to
    establish "instant messaging" sessions - in fact I've been told that
    Microsoft uses SIP to locate your 'buddies' when using MSN Messenger.
    There is also a lot of work in the standards area for such things.

    Another interesting area in which SIP might play a part is P2P. In
    (primarily) P2P systems the first problem to overcome is locating at least
    one Peer. SIP provides a way to do that, and assuming that SIP is adopted
    and implemented by the telephony companies as a standard there will be a
    lot of support in routers, firewalls, and servers for locating Peers using
    SIP.

    Yeah, it's all boring stuff. :-)


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  14. #44
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:45:11 -0500, Craig Clearman <chclear@nospam.please>
    wrote:

    >Are we thinking about the same SIP?


    Late breaking news:

    <quote
    http://iwsun4.infoworld.com/articles...lmessanger.xml>

    AOL's interoperability framework builds upon the IETF's (Internet
    Engineering Task Force) SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leverage
    (SIMPLE) messaging protocol, which is an IM-specific implementation of the
    IETF's telephony-oriented Session Initiation Protocol (SIP), according to
    the report.

    </quote>


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  15. #45
    Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster Guest

    Re: Why C++ is Annoyingly Esoteric

    "Craig Clearman" <chclear@nospam.please> wrote in message <news:sh4ultorhag6u2me026j1sps5tr7iv0diu@4ax.com>...

    > Hi Zane,
    >
    > >Heh, yeah it is pretty silly. Personally I think there are more
    > >interesting things to do - like learn about SIP

    >
    > Are we thinking about the same SIP? Session initiation protocol? If
    > so, is this what you do for fun? I see articles about SIP and VoIP and
    > immediately skip to the next article. I can't really imagine building
    > a component for it.


    In that case, you'll probably be interested in licensing one instead.
    You find things like DNS and BIND handy, don't you?

    --
    Joe Foster <mailto:jfoster@ricochet.net> On the cans? <http://www.xenu.net/>
    WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
    because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!



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