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Thread: Upgrade Wizard

  1. #1
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Upgrade Wizard


    I have a couple questions directed at those who have decided to *not* upgrade
    to VB.NET because their existing VB6 code will not run on VB.NET....

    Before I ask my questions, let me just say that I am *not* trying to start
    an argument or flame war. I'm honestly curious as to how people feel about
    this issue. In fact, if you're a .NETter, you should stop reading this post
    right here. This is for the .NOTters only.

    OK, here are my two questions....

    1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?

    2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?

    Before anyone says anything...'

    Yes, I realize that the Upgrade Wizard is not 100% or even 95% accurate.
    I'm just saying, "what if?". For the sake of argument, please just humor
    me.

    Yes, I realize that no matter how well-intentioned this thread is, it will
    degenerate into an flame war. At least for the first day or two, I would
    like to get some serious answers.

    So, if you haven't upgraded to VB.NET because of compatibility issues, please
    answer *both* questions.

    If you have already upgraded to VB.NET, you were supposed to stop reading
    this at the second paragraph. Please try to refrain from responding to this
    post, at least for the first couple days so I can get some honest feedback.


    Again, here are my two questions....

    1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?

    2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?

    /Pat

  2. #2
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    OK, serious answer:

    On 12 Aug 2002 20:10:31 -0700, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >
    >I have a couple questions directed at those who have decided to *not* upgrade
    >to VB.NET because their existing VB6 code will not run on VB.NET....
    >
    >Before I ask my questions, let me just say that I am *not* trying to start
    >an argument or flame war. I'm honestly curious as to how people feel about
    >this issue. In fact, if you're a .NETter, you should stop reading this post
    >right here. This is for the .NOTters only.
    >
    >OK, here are my two questions....
    >
    >1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    As to the feasibility of upgrading with a 95% conversion, it depends
    on what the remaining 5% is. If it's clearly "broken" TODO's then I'd
    consider it, and likely take care of that using a converter of my own
    (using embedded commands in the source comments). I've done that
    successfully before. If it's simply code that's "incorrectly
    converted" but might compile then it's a little too dangerous to deal
    with in large code bases... and that's a real issue with this change.

    >2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    It might change my mind about the feasibility of upgrading, but not
    about the status of the language and its suitability for long lived
    code.

    While a part of the problem is the ability to continue to deliver
    updated applications to environments that can't satisfactorily run
    ..Net yet, I have been serious in my description of the "trust" issue.
    That means a parallel code base, but with 100% conversion that should
    be automatic... at the same time you still never know what's going to
    hit you next.

    I'd still be looking for another home for it for the long term. This
    is too much to go through if there is any reasonable alternative. The
    risk is simply too high, and things don't have to be this way.

    It's kind of surprising to feel this way. Two years ago you couldn't
    have convinced me to even take a casual look at alternatives. Now
    we're putting serious effort into it.

    >Before anyone says anything...'
    >
    >Yes, I realize that the Upgrade Wizard is not 100% or even 95% accurate.
    >I'm just saying, "what if?". For the sake of argument, please just humor
    >me.


    Yup. No foul. It's unfortunate that the upgrade wizard couldn't be
    better, but it really can't be much better than it is. Many of the
    changes can't be made by rote without generating very messy code, so
    they really had little chance.

    It's been surprising to find that a conversion to OP (Delphi) is not
    out of the question. It would be work, but it appears more reasonable
    than going to VB.Net. It will be interesting to see what their .Net
    offering will look like. If it approaches their marketeer claims, it
    looks like it would be reasonable to have a code base that would work
    on three "native" platforms (Win/Linux/.Net). We'll have to wait to
    see how closely reality matches the projections though.

    OTOH, I'd much rather have a real VB in .Net (and Linux for that
    matter). Not likely though.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)
    Error 51
    Error 3
    Error 9
    ....

  3. #3
    Gary Nelson Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    Patrick,

    > 1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    > with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    As Dan says, it depends a lot on what the 5% is (I've got a lot of gosubs,
    which are especially painful to convert). But I would definitely give it a
    go.

    > 2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    > with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    I would already be working in .Net if I could convert 100% of my code. I
    don't even pretend that it to do that.

    I expect the language to evolve, I think that is normal, what I want is just
    a moderately easy migration path. I understand that Dan want's something
    that would work on both platforms, but I've always found that too dificult
    to maintain. I moved a lot of code from PDS to VB1, but once there, there
    was no way to put it back. Even when I went from QB3 to QB4 there was no way
    back.

    If I thought that I could have my code ported in two or three months, I
    would put my VB6 program on ice and dedicate full time to the conversion.
    But right now I'm sure that I couldn't do it in less that eight or nine
    months, and that is too long to hold my program on ice.

    By the way, if anyone is listening, one sugestion for the Wizzard: If a sub
    uses a% as a variable, why not add the 'Dim a as short' automatically. It
    shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Instead it dims a as object, and
    throughs up a message every time a is used that it doesn't know what it is.
    I've got a lot of old code that doesn't dim the variables, and it is a pain
    to convert.

    Gary



  4. #4
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    On 12 Aug 2002 20:10:31 -0700, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    No. Because I'd still end up having to use Java (sorry, VB.Net!).

    >2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    No. Because I'd still end up having to use Java (sorry, VB.Net!).

    MM

  5. #5
    Ray Collins Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard


    > 1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    > with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    I'm sure this will be another echo - it depends what the missing 5% is.

    >
    > 2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    > with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    Yes, we would be there already. With other versions of VB we have brought
    our code base forward and then changed parts to the new way of doing things
    when the opportunity presented itself. If the wizard upgraded properly and
    provided decent help when it didn't it would also serve as a useful training
    tool.




  6. #6
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3d58cbb9.2948257@news.devx.com...
    > On 12 Aug 2002 20:10:31 -0700, "Patrick Troughton"
    > <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    > >1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    > >with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to

    VB.NET?
    >
    > No. Because I'd still end up having to use Java (sorry, VB.Net!).
    >
    > >2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    > >with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to

    VB.NET?
    >
    > No. Because I'd still end up having to use Java (sorry, VB.Net!).
    >
    > MM


    Mike -

    Why would you want to use Java? You have already mentioned (wongly IMO)
    that you think that OOP is pointless. So why Java (a well-known C#-like
    language <g>)? There is no essential difference between the .NET and Java
    platforms other than the manufacturer.

    Another thing, Mike: how much production code do you have in VB6? It is
    really hard to tell exactly what you do between your emotional appeals to
    save the huddled masses of child-like VB6 programmers from the evils of
    Redmond. Are you a hobbyist? Or are you a professional programmer?

    --
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Chordiant Software, Inc.
    Brentford
    UK



  7. #7
    MMFAN Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard


    Performing market research for Microsoft? I'm not convinced that your intentions
    are as honerable as you say. However, these are good questions. Expect
    no flames from me. With this in mind please understand that I was but one
    of the decision makers in favor of a leap to Java. There were external factors
    involved as well, such as exploring new markets. .Net happened to come along
    at the right time and cause us to revalutate our position on our place in
    the universe. I will answer your questions from my own perspective.

    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    >I have a couple questions directed at those who have decided to *not* upgrade
    >to VB.NET because their existing VB6 code will not run on VB.NET....
    >
    >Before I ask my questions, let me just say that I am *not* trying to start
    >an argument or flame war. I'm honestly curious as to how people feel about
    >this issue. In fact, if you're a .NETter, you should stop reading this post
    >right here. This is for the .NOTters only.
    >
    >OK, here are my two questions....
    >
    >1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    Yes, it may have made a huge difference. An investment kept is better than
    an investment lost.

    >2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    Yes, in fact it may have been a lock. This is how an "upgrade" should be
    isn't it?

    Commentary:
    The fact is that we felt that VB.Net and the .Net framework was such a large
    departure from VB6 and more like Java, we would simply use Java, since there
    are many Java developers already in they workforce and a wealth of support
    from the industry both open source and commercial. Since it appeared that
    a rewrite was needed, it was a no brainer.

    It was not necessary to list the questions twice.

    Now are you really not going to flame me?


  8. #8
    Bob Butler Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    news:3d5878a7$1@10.1.10.29
    > I have a couple questions directed at those who have decided to *not*
    > upgrade to VB.NET because their existing VB6 code will not run on
    > VB.NET....
    >
    > Before I ask my questions, let me just say that I am *not* trying to
    > start an argument or flame war. I'm honestly curious as to how people
    > feel about this issue. In fact, if you're a .NETter, you should stop
    > reading this post right here. This is for the .NOTters only.
    >
    > OK, here are my two questions....
    >
    > 1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to
    > VB.NET with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about
    > upgrading to VB.NET?


    No.

    > 2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to
    > VB.NET with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about
    > upgrading to VB.NET?


    Not unless Microsoft made a definite commitment to maintaining the stability
    of the core language, returned the co-opted keywords to their original
    meanings and implemented a specific process for deprecating language
    features over time. The very need for an upgrade wizard that changes core
    language syntax is a sign that something is wrong in the way VB.Net was
    designed.





  9. #9
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <michka@spamless.trigeminal.nospamcom> wrote in
    message news:3d590181$1@10.1.10.29...
    > "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote...
    >
    > > Another thing, Mike: how much production code do you have in VB6?

    >
    > He has none whatsoever.
    >
    > --
    > MichKa


    That's as maybe - but I would rather hear it from the horse's mouth (as it
    were).

    --
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Chordiant Software, Inc.
    Brentford
    UK



  10. #10
    Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard



    >Again, here are my two questions....
    >
    >1---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 95% accurracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?


    >2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to VB.NET
    >with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about upgrading to VB.NET?
    >
    >/Pat


    Yes and yes in both cases. The only potential danger that will still stand
    in my way then - will be the quality of conversion.

  11. #11
    MMFAN Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard


    "Michael \(michka\) Kaplan" <michka@spamless.trigeminal.nospamcom> wrote:
    >"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote...
    >
    >> Another thing, Mike: how much production code do you have in VB6?

    >
    >He has none whatsoever.


    Please tell me how you know this. We all know you despise him, but come
    on. Seems to me you are making an "educated guess" I can't imagine someone
    who has no VB6 code in production being so persistant.

    At least make an attempt to set an example. After all you are a former MVP.



  12. #12
    Frank Oquendo Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    MMFAN had this to say:

    > I can't
    > imagine someone who has no VB6 code in production being so persistant.


    You're not trying hard enough. Mike Mitchell hasn't even *installed* VS.NET
    and look at all the criticism he continually heaps upon it.

    --
    There are 10 kinds of people:
    Those who understand binary and those who don't
    http://www.acadx.com
    http://vbxtender.sourceforge.net



  13. #13
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 06:30:40 -0700, "Bob Butler"
    <butlerbob@earthlink.net> wrote:

    >> 2---If the Upgrade Wizard converted all your existing VB6 code to
    >> VB.NET with 100% accuracy, would that change your mind about
    >> upgrading to VB.NET?

    >
    >Not unless Microsoft made a definite commitment to maintaining the stability
    >of the core language, returned the co-opted keywords to their original
    >meanings and implemented a specific process for deprecating language
    >features over time. The very need for an upgrade wizard that changes core
    >language syntax is a sign that something is wrong in the way VB.Net was
    >designed.


    Yes, this is a very important issue. We can hope someone sees it on
    the inside, but it looks kind of grim at the moment.

    In my response I said I'd still be looking for a new "home" for my
    code. I would be doing that, and doing it actively. It's too early
    to tell where I'd end up, but the thought of having to depend on
    wizards is unreasonable for real code libraries.

    Just saying they have a commitment to the language simply isn't enough
    given the history. I've been there. If they returned they returned
    the co-opted keywords and provided a new process for change (including
    input from folks who have a vested interest in code assets) I might
    reconsider.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)
    Error 51
    Error 3
    Error 9
    ....

  14. #14
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:28:08 +0100, "Gary Nelson" <gn@contanet.es>
    wrote:

    >By the way, if anyone is listening, one sugestion for the Wizzard: If a sub
    >uses a% as a variable, why not add the 'Dim a as short' automatically.


    If it *doesn't* do that, that can only be a sign that the people
    involved don't really understand B.A.S.I.C.

    MM

  15. #15
    Vlad Ivanov Guest

    Re: Upgrade Wizard


    What Dan and Bob said.

    I would also like to extend a warm "**** Off and Die" to Microsoft, since
    i started typing already.

    I wonder what Borland folks are waiting for. I still don't understand what
    the **** is the deal with Pascal syntax and isn't it about time they made
    a VB-like clone out of Delphi?

    Borland .... Echo? Echo?

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