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Thread: Why so defensive?

  1. #1
    Dave Guest

    Why so defensive?


    It's interesting that so many on this newsgroup are so acutely defensive of
    Microsoft. I'm happily coding away in VB.NET, but occasionally I notice some
    fairly abominable performance issue (such as ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc..),
    and I would think that the VB.NET community would have an interest in coaxing
    Microsoft to get these performance issues ironed out in the next version.

    However, most here, when confronted with one of these glaring performance
    issues, usually react by challenging the approach of the developer raising
    the issue, even when it is just a straight-forward application of VB.NET
    code (e.g., again, ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc.).

    It is in our collective interest to get VB.NET up to speed on those features
    in common with VB6 so that more applications start getting ported to VB.NET.

    It is not in our interest to respond to every performance issue by slagging
    the developers daring to actually use a feature which has terrible performance.




  2. #2
    james Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?

    Dave, this group isn't about getting the bugs in VB.NET fixed. For that it
    is much more profitable to post bugs and other suggestions directly to
    Microsoft's newsgroups.
    So, if for instance, you have a Graphics preformance problem, your best bet
    is to go to
    microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.drawing,, and post your preformance issue
    there and it is much more likely that it will be addressed by someone from
    Microsoft than it is here.
    (though some of Microsoft's reps. to show up here once in a while)
    And you can find out if the issue(s) are known, and if there is a work
    around or if it's slated to be corrected in an upcoming version of VB.NET.
    james

    (an also, the poster of the problem is less likely to get slagged for
    posting the problem in the first place.)
    "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
    news:3e304cc9$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > It's interesting that so many on this newsgroup are so acutely defensive

    of
    > Microsoft. I'm happily coding away in VB.NET, but occasionally I notice

    some
    > fairly abominable performance issue (such as ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc..),
    > and I would think that the VB.NET community would have an interest in

    coaxing
    > Microsoft to get these performance issues ironed out in the next version.
    >
    > However, most here, when confronted with one of these glaring performance
    > issues, usually react by challenging the approach of the developer raising
    > the issue, even when it is just a straight-forward application of VB.NET
    > code (e.g., again, ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc.).
    >
    > It is in our collective interest to get VB.NET up to speed on those

    features
    > in common with VB6 so that more applications start getting ported to

    VB.NET.
    >
    > It is not in our interest to respond to every performance issue by

    slagging
    > the developers daring to actually use a feature which has terrible

    performance.
    >
    >
    >




  3. #3
    Dave Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    "james" <jamesw2@mesh.net> wrote:
    >Dave, this group isn't about getting the bugs in VB.NET fixed. For that

    it
    >is much more profitable to post bugs and other suggestions directly to
    >Microsoft's newsgroups.


    No, I'm not using the newsgroup as a route to getting the problems fixed,
    but I'm just curious about the extreme defensiveness when a problem is mentioned.



  4. #4
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?

    On 23 Jan 2003 12:12:57 -0800, "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> wrote:

    >It's interesting that so many on this newsgroup are so acutely defensive of
    >Microsoft. I'm happily coding away in VB.NET, but occasionally I notice some
    >fairly abominable performance issue (such as ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc..),
    >and I would think that the VB.NET community would have an interest in coaxing
    >Microsoft to get these performance issues ironed out in the next version.


    Not really so strange, Dave. Go into a bar and tell a guy he's got the
    ugliest wife in the room. Well, he's gonna punch your lights out even
    if it's true and she has a face like a bag of spanners.

    People are always defensive of that which they love. It's human
    nature. Of course, love can be blind...

    MM

  5. #5
    Kent Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    Dave,

    For what it's worth it's like this in the Java groups too. I'm with you
    though, lets not pretend the problems don't exist, how else will they get
    resolved?

    All of the people that post about gosub being missing in .Net for example
    are told they are stupid for using gosub in the first place. The .Net advocates
    just can't understand the compatibility issue. They say they do but they
    don't and don't want to.

    I think Phil is on the right track. Get something that just works. That's
    all we're asking for

    Kent

    "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> wrote:
    >
    >"james" <jamesw2@mesh.net> wrote:
    >>Dave, this group isn't about getting the bugs in VB.NET fixed. For that

    >it
    >>is much more profitable to post bugs and other suggestions directly to
    >>Microsoft's newsgroups.

    >
    >No, I'm not using the newsgroup as a route to getting the problems fixed,
    >but I'm just curious about the extreme defensiveness when a problem is mentioned.
    >
    >


  6. #6
    PWilmarth Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    This is an interesting question. It depends on which side of the fence you
    are sitting on. A lot of people pay attention to what Microsoft does, and
    obsess about it. I've seen the anti-Microsoft folks jump in here with attacks,
    knowing full well that this is a VB.NET group. They expect a response, and
    they usually get it. It's human nature to respond to attacks, and I can't
    think of any other profession (except maybe lawyers)that seems so **** bent
    on always proofing that their particular point of view is "right", and the
    other side is just plain nuts. When you have so much polarization, your going
    to see exactly the kind of behavior you are describing. Personally, I don't
    have enough hours in the day to research every story or article on the Internet
    about Micrsoft. I look for tools that work, and if they don't work to my
    satisfaction, then I go looking for something else that meets my needs. Right
    now, .NET gives me a simplified programming model that works well. It's not
    perfect, but it does solve a lot of problems for me.

  7. #7
    Patrice Scribe Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?

    Sometimes it's also about making the best use of .NET. For example Redim
    Preserve is obviously slow. If you don't know how much elements you want to
    store you could probably use another of the numerous data structure now
    available in .NET (ArrayList maybe)... Similarly the poor Mid performance is
    probably tied to how strings are handled in .NET. Intensive string
    manipulation would rather require a StringBuilder (even it looks like it was
    rather an array of numbers of some kind).

    On some of these comething could be done, but on others this is just the way
    ..NET works (such as strings). Perhaps could we continue rather in
    "technical".

    Though it seems there are many papers available, it could be interesting
    also to see exact problems encountered by those porting to .NET to see how a
    VB6 app can be best prepared for the upgrade (for exemple an app with data
    access scattered trhough the whole code rather than using a separate data
    access layer is probably more difficult to port to ADO.NET).

    Patrice

    "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
    3e304cc9$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > It's interesting that so many on this newsgroup are so acutely defensive

    of
    > Microsoft. I'm happily coding away in VB.NET, but occasionally I notice

    some
    > fairly abominable performance issue (such as ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc..),
    > and I would think that the VB.NET community would have an interest in

    coaxing
    > Microsoft to get these performance issues ironed out in the next version.
    >
    > However, most here, when confronted with one of these glaring performance
    > issues, usually react by challenging the approach of the developer raising
    > the issue, even when it is just a straight-forward application of VB.NET
    > code (e.g., again, ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc.).
    >
    > It is in our collective interest to get VB.NET up to speed on those

    features
    > in common with VB6 so that more applications start getting ported to

    VB.NET.
    >
    > It is not in our interest to respond to every performance issue by

    slagging
    > the developers daring to actually use a feature which has terrible

    performance.
    >
    >
    >




  8. #8
    Patrice Scribe Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?

    ..NET is a new platform and MS made the choice to create a new VB.NET
    language for this new .NET architecture rather than to reproduce exactly how
    VB6 worked...

    Now you have basically two options :
    - refuse that, keep using VB6 and perhaps change to another dev product at a
    later time
    - accept that and do your best to ease the migration (it could start by
    keeping the VB6 app but to adapt it progressivly sot hat it can be ported
    more easily to .NET)

    NET is a new execution environment and the change is quite similar to a
    Windows 3.11/95 change.

    Beyond that I don't think it's possible to do much more :
    - complain to MS but are they willing to bring back full compatibily and
    where should they stop anyway (and there is also probably issues with the
    new "form" package) ?

    For now we are just keeping our VB6 apps and are using .NET for our new web
    apps - a bit of both sides

    "Kent" <kp@kp.org> a écrit dans le message de news:
    3e308d50$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > Dave,
    >
    > For what it's worth it's like this in the Java groups too. I'm with you
    > though, lets not pretend the problems don't exist, how else will they get
    > resolved?
    >
    > All of the people that post about gosub being missing in .Net for example
    > are told they are stupid for using gosub in the first place. The .Net

    advocates
    > just can't understand the compatibility issue. They say they do but they
    > don't and don't want to.
    >
    > I think Phil is on the right track. Get something that just works.

    That's
    > all we're asking for
    >
    > Kent
    >
    > "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> wrote:
    > >
    > >"james" <jamesw2@mesh.net> wrote:
    > >>Dave, this group isn't about getting the bugs in VB.NET fixed. For that

    > >it
    > >>is much more profitable to post bugs and other suggestions directly to
    > >>Microsoft's newsgroups.

    > >
    > >No, I'm not using the newsgroup as a route to getting the problems fixed,
    > >but I'm just curious about the extreme defensiveness when a problem is

    mentioned.
    > >
    > >




  9. #9
    Kent Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    This is a VB.Net discussion group. Discussing what a bust it has been is
    still a discussion. You'll notice that I don't post in the VB technical
    group or any other group for that matter because this is the appropriate
    place to vent.

    By actually facing the problems head on, it is possible that M$ will see
    the error of their ways and make things right.

    "PWilmarth" <pwilmarth80231@msn.com> wrote:
    >
    >This is an interesting question. It depends on which side of the fence you
    >are sitting on. A lot of people pay attention to what Microsoft does, and
    >obsess about it. I've seen the anti-Microsoft folks jump in here with attacks,
    >knowing full well that this is a VB.NET group. They expect a response, and
    >they usually get it. It's human nature to respond to attacks, and I can't
    >think of any other profession (except maybe lawyers)that seems so **** bent
    >on always proofing that their particular point of view is "right", and the
    >other side is just plain nuts. When you have so much polarization, your

    going
    >to see exactly the kind of behavior you are describing. Personally, I don't
    >have enough hours in the day to research every story or article on the Internet
    >about Micrsoft. I look for tools that work, and if they don't work to my
    >satisfaction, then I go looking for something else that meets my needs.

    Right
    >now, .NET gives me a simplified programming model that works well. It's

    not
    >perfect, but it does solve a lot of problems for me.



  10. #10
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    Hi Dave,

    You shouldn't be using Mid in the first place. VB.NET is now a fully object
    oriented language. Mid is only there for backwards compatibilty. Strings
    are now full-fledged objects, so use the built-in string methods and properties
    such as Substring and Insert. In fact, most of these legacy VB functions
    serve only as wrappers to these intrinsic .NET features. That's why they're
    slower....a wrapper will never be faster than the real thing.

    What I do is to go into Project | Properties menu, select Common Properties
    | Imports in the treeview, and remove the reference to Microsoft.VisualBasic.
    This will help you get out of these bad habits. Also, make sure you have
    Option Strict On. HTH.

    /Pat
    ---------------------------
    It's the platform, stupid.
    ---------------------------

    "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> wrote:
    >
    >It's interesting that so many on this newsgroup are so acutely defensive

    of
    >Microsoft. I'm happily coding away in VB.NET, but occasionally I notice

    some
    >fairly abominable performance issue (such as ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc..),
    >and I would think that the VB.NET community would have an interest in coaxing
    >Microsoft to get these performance issues ironed out in the next version.
    >
    >However, most here, when confronted with one of these glaring performance
    >issues, usually react by challenging the approach of the developer raising
    >the issue, even when it is just a straight-forward application of VB.NET
    >code (e.g., again, ReDim Preserve, Mid, etc.).
    >
    >It is in our collective interest to get VB.NET up to speed on those features
    >in common with VB6 so that more applications start getting ported to VB.NET.
    >
    >It is not in our interest to respond to every performance issue by slagging
    >the developers daring to actually use a feature which has terrible performance.
    >
    >
    >



  11. #11
    Dave Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    "Patrice Scribe" <scribe@chez.com> wrote:
    >Sometimes it's also about making the best use of .NET. For example Redim
    >Preserve is obviously slow. If you don't know how much elements you want

    to
    >store you could probably use another of the numerous data structure now
    >available in .NET (ArrayList maybe)... Similarly the poor Mid performance

    is
    >probably tied to how strings are handled in .NET. Intensive string
    >manipulation would rather require a StringBuilder (even it looks like it

    was
    >rather an array of numbers of some kind).


    A lot of us don't have the luxury of rewriting our apps after we finally
    get to port them. That is the problem - it's so hard to do a straight port
    and get it running - then we find out "wait a minute - I now have to rewrite
    to get performance".

    Back to my main point, if something is obviously broken (ReDim, Mid, etc.),
    then the solution we should want to see from Microsoft is "fix it", not "well,
    you shouldn't be using these parts of the language..".
    BTW, I could care less about the internals of how Mid works - that's Microsoft's
    job. I don't bore my users with the internals of the systems I produce -
    I respond when they say "too slow".




  12. #12
    Dave Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    >Hi Dave,
    >
    >You shouldn't be using Mid in the first place. VB.NET is now a fully object
    >oriented language. Mid is only there for backwards compatibilty. Strings
    >are now full-fledged objects, so use the built-in string methods and properties
    >such as Substring and Insert. In fact, most of these legacy VB functions
    >serve only as wrappers to these intrinsic .NET features. That's why they're
    >slower....a wrapper will never be faster than the real thing.
    >
    >What I do is to go into Project | Properties menu, select Common Properties
    >| Imports in the treeview, and remove the reference to Microsoft.VisualBasic.
    >This will help you get out of these bad habits. Also, make sure you have
    >Option Strict On. HTH.
    >
    >/Pat


    I think you're mistaking the Microsoft.VisualBasic namespace with the VB6.Compatibility
    namespace - *that* is the namespace intended purely for backward compatibility.
    I do remove the reference to the VB6.Compatibility namespace. The Microsoft.VisualBasic
    is just stuff that is VB after all. This is a discussion group about VB.NET
    - are you saying that VB.NET is great, except for the VB part?

    Also, when I add wrapper functions it never means that the functionality
    becomes hundreds of times slower. Give me a break.



  13. #13
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    Hi Dave,

    >I think you're mistaking the Microsoft.VisualBasic namespace with the VB6.Compatibility
    >namespace


    No, I'm not mistaking Microsoft.VisualBasic for the compatibility namespace.
    Both should be removed. By removing Microsoft.VisualBasic, you get 3 primary
    advantages.......

    1...It ensures that your code will be fully object-oriented rather than a
    odd mix of legacy VB6 functions and the new VB.NET properties/methods/events.
    This is partially a matter of mindset. There are a number of books that explain
    OO concepts. It might help to read a couple.

    2...If you ever switch to (or simply read) another .NET language, such as
    C#, it will be that much easier for you to write and understand the code
    because you won't be relying on VB-specific language features.

    3...As you have already noted, performance will be much better.

    > This is a discussion group about VB.NET
    >- are you saying that VB.NET is great, except for the VB part?


    No, getting rid of Microsoft.VisualBasic simply removes legacy VB6 functions.
    The core VB.NET language remains the same. Try it and you might be surprised.

    > when I add wrapper functions it never means that the functionality
    >becomes hundreds of times slower.


    Mid is not intended to be performant. It's only purpose is for backwards
    compatibility. If you're upgrading existing VB6 code, then by all means use
    it. But if you're writing band new code, then don't. The wrappers perform
    additional checks beyond what the .NET Framework provides. I've never seen
    the code for the Mid wrapper but I wouldn't be surprised if it double-checked
    to make sure Strings aren't Nothing. What other checks it provides for compatibility's
    sake....I can't say. Regardless, you can avoid the problem in the first place
    by simply not using it.

    /Pat
    ---------------------------
    It's the platform, stupid.
    ---------------------------

    "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> wrote:
    >
    >"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Hi Dave,
    >>
    >>You shouldn't be using Mid in the first place. VB.NET is now a fully object
    >>oriented language. Mid is only there for backwards compatibilty. Strings
    >>are now full-fledged objects, so use the built-in string methods and properties
    >>such as Substring and Insert. In fact, most of these legacy VB functions
    >>serve only as wrappers to these intrinsic .NET features. That's why they're
    >>slower....a wrapper will never be faster than the real thing.
    >>
    >>What I do is to go into Project | Properties menu, select Common Properties
    >>| Imports in the treeview, and remove the reference to Microsoft.VisualBasic.
    >>This will help you get out of these bad habits. Also, make sure you have
    >>Option Strict On. HTH.
    >>
    >>/Pat


  14. #14
    Tom Shelton Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?


    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    news:3e3171fa$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > Hi Dave,
    >
    > >I think you're mistaking the Microsoft.VisualBasic namespace with the

    VB6.Compatibility
    > >namespace

    >
    > No, I'm not mistaking Microsoft.VisualBasic for the compatibility

    namespace.
    > Both should be removed. By removing Microsoft.VisualBasic, you get 3

    primary
    > advantages.......
    >
    > 1...It ensures that your code will be fully object-oriented rather than a
    > odd mix of legacy VB6 functions and the new VB.NET

    properties/methods/events.
    > This is partially a matter of mindset. There are a number of books that

    explain
    > OO concepts. It might help to read a couple.
    >
    > 2...If you ever switch to (or simply read) another .NET language, such as
    > C#, it will be that much easier for you to write and understand the code
    > because you won't be relying on VB-specific language features.
    >
    > 3...As you have already noted, performance will be much better.
    >
    > > This is a discussion group about VB.NET
    > >- are you saying that VB.NET is great, except for the VB part?

    >
    > No, getting rid of Microsoft.VisualBasic simply removes legacy VB6

    functions.
    > The core VB.NET language remains the same. Try it and you might be

    surprised.
    >
    > > when I add wrapper functions it never means that the functionality
    > >becomes hundreds of times slower.

    >
    > Mid is not intended to be performant. It's only purpose is for backwards
    > compatibility. If you're upgrading existing VB6 code, then by all means

    use
    > it. But if you're writing band new code, then don't. The wrappers perform
    > additional checks beyond what the .NET Framework provides. I've never seen
    > the code for the Mid wrapper but I wouldn't be surprised if it

    double-checked
    > to make sure Strings aren't Nothing. What other checks it provides for

    compatibility's
    > sake....I can't say. Regardless, you can avoid the problem in the first

    place
    > by simply not using it.
    >
    > /Pat
    > ---------------------------
    > It's the platform, stupid.
    > ---------------------------


    Yikes! I just spent 10 minutes with the Anakrino decompiler and
    Microsoft.VisualBasic.... Mid for one is simply a semi-complex wrapper for
    Sting.Subsubtring method. Even String.Substring is going to be slow
    though - it is the nature of immutable strings. If you want fast string
    operations, that is the purpose of System.Text.StringBuilder...

    Oh, don't even get me started on the File I/O - wow! You should see the
    hoops it has to jump through to maintain VB.CLASSIC behavior. In the end,
    it just uses the Stream classes - it's all the stuff wraped around it that
    is slowing it down. The sooner people dump these functions, the better.

    Tom Shelton



  15. #15
    Patrice Scribe Guest

    Re: Why so defensive?

    Unfortunately it's unlikely to happen from MS as the Mid function being slow
    for intensive string handling takes its root down into the underlying .NET
    platform, but you can still see what is slow and fix it in your .NET code as
    you usually does.

    At some point you have to deal with things as they are. So what next now :
    - take the .NET path if you find it valuable
    - stick with VB6 "definitely" (eventually flying away later from MS) or at
    least temporarily (while waiting for hypothetic fixes in the next release or
    enhanced migration path in VB.NET 2003 ?)

    Intensive Mid use in .NET will always be slow.

    Patrice

    "Dave" <dave_doknjas@yahoo.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
    3e315539$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
    >
    > "Patrice Scribe" <scribe@chez.com> wrote:
    > >Sometimes it's also about making the best use of .NET. For example Redim
    > >Preserve is obviously slow. If you don't know how much elements you want

    > to
    > >store you could probably use another of the numerous data structure now
    > >available in .NET (ArrayList maybe)... Similarly the poor Mid performance

    > is
    > >probably tied to how strings are handled in .NET. Intensive string
    > >manipulation would rather require a StringBuilder (even it looks like it

    > was
    > >rather an array of numbers of some kind).

    >
    > A lot of us don't have the luxury of rewriting our apps after we finally
    > get to port them. That is the problem - it's so hard to do a straight port
    > and get it running - then we find out "wait a minute - I now have to

    rewrite
    > to get performance".
    >
    > Back to my main point, if something is obviously broken (ReDim, Mid,

    etc.),
    > then the solution we should want to see from Microsoft is "fix it", not

    "well,
    > you shouldn't be using these parts of the language..".
    > BTW, I could care less about the internals of how Mid works - that's

    Microsoft's
    > job. I don't bore my users with the internals of the systems I produce -
    > I respond when they say "too slow".
    >
    >
    >




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