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Thread: Anybody using Visio???

  1. #1
    Christian Guest

    Anybody using Visio???


    As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen it
    many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
    to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
    sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
    If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
    reports, visio and other software included?

    I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
    general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
    i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i contemplate
    learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand our
    Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
    blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???

    Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
    appreciated.

    Christian

  2. #2
    Ralph D. Cole Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    "Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen it
    >many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
    >to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
    >sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
    > If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
    >reports, visio and other software included?
    > ...


    It is my understanding that Visio-UML will be packaged as part of the "Enterprise"
    offering. Providing a complete Modeling tool is a "new" entry by M$, (Visual
    Modeler was limited to class diagrams only, with terrible paper), so is possible
    it will be basically a "come-on" add-in at no charge. Kind of like what they
    did with Visual SourceSafe. (Just a guess - as I said, I really don't know
    how they are going to handle it.)

    > ...
    >I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
    >general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
    >i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i

    contemplate
    >learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand our
    >Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
    >blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
    > ...



    We just had a lively discussion on using UML in the DevX vb.oop newsgroup.
    You might want to take a look at those threads.

    IMHO: The first impact of a developer using UML is the reverse-engineering.
    Reverse-engineering the model from code allows a programmer to better see
    how various OO patterns relate to code, makes 'comment' and documentation,
    easier to handle, and provides a good general over-all view of the "forest"
    removed from the "code-trees".

    This is important, because contrary to what the "Purest" would have you believe.
    Designing a project and then using UML to generate code is a difficult process,
    especially for someone new to OO analysis/design.
    Most developers are not adequately trained to use UML, and it can become
    a fustrating and useless exercise. But they KNOW code. Writing code then
    generating UML is a great and simple way to learn UML. After awhile the developer
    will start to see UML and invision the implementation.

    > ...
    >Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
    >appreciated.
    >
    >Christian


    I use UML all the time in my development. My primary tool is Rational Rose,
    but I used Visual Modeler in those shops that did not choose to use Rose.
    IMHO: UML forms a keystone productivity tool within any serious OO effort.

    Been playing with the version supplied with VS.NET and I like what I see
    so far. A relatively inexpensive tool has been needed for quite awhile now.
    Functionality appears to be not too far from Rose. I also like the Object
    Library and the scripts are in VBA.

    Rational Rose is great, but the scripts take a long time to learn and it
    is NOT cheap, it is essentially out of the range of the average software
    shop. Less than a third of the shops I contracted with, that supplied Enterprise
    to their developers, had Rational Rose in house.

    To me the idea of a full-blown modeling tool as part of the package is pretty
    exciting. But then I am an OO geek.

  3. #3
    Christian Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Ralph,

    Thanks for the reply. I really think the way i want to go is to use uml
    to model our software. Most programmers here are old school VB'ers and have
    not had any experience with classes or other basic ideas of a true OO language.
    I think that once they see the design in UML perhaps they may start to see
    the use of Classes in code, and learn faster how to impliment classes.

    My experience in UML is limited to about half a year of RR, but i have been
    looking at Visio and doing some reverse engineering with other code for examples.
    We are not going to really start rewriting our code till probly around early
    december or so, but i can make a basic model of everything to build on when
    we do start writing (even if just for presentations). If it where my choice,
    and i where writing my own code for myself i would probly not waste my time,
    but since this code is not just for me, its for everybody and everybody after
    us, i think its my responsibility to make it as easy and illustrated as possible
    for the next set of programmers.

    Any tips other tips for UML design would be greatly appreciated.

    Christian


  4. #4
    Ralph D. Cole Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    "Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >Ralph,
    >
    >Thanks for the reply. I really think the way i want to go is to use uml
    >to model our software.
    > ...


    Tip One: Your first model will suck.
    Remember when you had 6 months, a year, of programming? How good was the
    code? It probably worked OK, but it likely bares little resemblance to what
    you would write today. Learning to design is identical to learning to program.
    Read everything, open Visio and design, borrow other's ideas, open Visio
    and redesign, design, design, design. Just like programming, the right stuff
    doesn't come from a book or magical insight, it comes from practice, practice,
    practice.

    Over-all, don't worry if your model is less eloquent than a design the Meyer's,
    Liberty's, and Fowler's of the world would come up with, because you have
    something they don't have - in-depth knowledge of YOUR domain. Your stuff
    will always inevitability work better than the book stuff.

    > ...
    >Most programmers here are old school VB'ers and have
    >not had any experience with classes or other basic ideas of a true OO language.
    > I think that once they see the design in UML perhaps they may start to

    see
    >the use of Classes in code, and learn faster how to impliment classes.


    > ''''


    Tip Two: Don't make this assumption.
    True OO development, or rather increased development using OO tools, is a
    paradign shift for anyone. Having experience with a OOPL is certainly a head-start
    but no insurance against the normal reaction of resistance to change.

    The OO cycle is Analysis, Design, Implementation, then back to Analysis.
    Programmer's are not analysts, are not designers, they are Implementors.
    Not because they aren't smart enough or don't know enough, but because that
    is not their job. They want to do their job, they probably enjoy doing their
    job. Whatever you do it has to relate to their job, how they have been doing
    things, and why this new "UML crap" is a good idea.

    In the beginning you can offer the model - generate some framework code and
    say this is the starting point. Get them to generate UML as they go along.
    This helps people to learn UML faster, checks to make sure they are not straying
    from the model, and is the ulimate test of whether the current model is worth
    a ****.

    Stress the 'comment' savings, the easier documentation, and visualization
    aspects of using UML. Schedule brown bag lunches to cover the basic 'syntax'.
    Keep asking and tolerating open discussions. When you're wrong admit it,
    when you're right show by example.

    Tip Three: You are probably wrong!
    Remembering 'Tip One' don't dismiss ALL objections out of hand. You might
    be wrong! If it is your first or second Model, the possibility of being wrong
    is unfortunately rather likely. Be ready to change. Remember it is an OO
    'CYCLE'. If after a couple of weeks the implementors haven't found several
    good reasons to doubt the analyis, then you have built your waterfalls too
    high, the salmon can't get up-stream, and future generations are threatened.

    Tip Four: Don't stray.
    At some point you will have to put your foot down. "Yeah, using that J# Oyster
    object is probably good idea, but ...". Change the model not the plan. If
    you find yourself in a corner, don't admit the exception, hit Select-All,
    Delete, and go back to the door and redesign. Designs are no more persistent
    than code.

    >My experience in UML is limited to about half a year of RR, but i have been
    >looking at Visio and doing some reverse engineering with other code for

    examples.
    > We are not going to really start rewriting our code till probly around

    early
    >december or so, but i can make a basic model of everything to build on when
    >we do start writing (even if just for presentations).


    > If it where my choice,
    >and i where writing my own code for myself i would probly not waste my time,
    >but since this code is not just for me, its for everybody and everybody

    after
    >us, i think its my responsibility to make it as easy and illustrated as

    possible
    >for the next set of programmers.
    >
    >Any tips other tips for UML design would be greatly appreciated.
    >
    >Christian
    >


    Tip Five: It is never a bad idea to model.
    One developer - one simple utility.
    20+ developers - a distributed app with a hundred utilities.
    It never hurts to model. Without a model you are blind. Besides like I mentioned
    - to learn how to design, you must design. Never miss an opportunity.

    -ralph

  5. #5
    Ralph Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???



    Christian,

    Just re-read my reply, Boy, do I sound like a pedantic, "know-it-all" jerk.
    I sound rather disagreeable, with a pitch just slightly below screaming.
    <g>

    An unforunate artifact of being an uneducated person, is the inability to
    correctly chose words and tone.

    I apologize if I was a little offensive. I was just trying to offer some
    tips, but got a little intense. (Hey I told you I was an OO geek. <smile>)


    -ralph


  6. #6
    Christian Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Ralph,

    I appreciate the tips you gave me, even if they did come off a little harshly
    (at first =) ).

    Anyway, from the time i frist started learning OO style programming, i have
    always modeled my code. Whether i used RR, pen and paper, or simply contained
    it in my head i always think everything out before i start work. Occasionally
    before i finishing modeling i will run a couple trial runs to see if an idea
    works (in an oversimplified situation) but before i write any code i plan
    on using in the final project everything first gets modeled, and stepped
    through (in every conceivable situation). I understand the princible of
    getting the code correct, not written then hacked to work (of which i am
    great at hacking code to work =) ).

    So modeling the code is not an option, whether its worth the time and effort
    to learn and utilize visio was really what i was asking. i did not know
    how functional visio was and it seems as though i have found my answer.


    As far as the other programmers here, only 2 of us have had any experience
    whatsoever with an OO language. The head programmer has never used any OOP
    but after approaching him with my ideas about how our programming could be
    (in addition to the massive upgrade we will have to make to .NET) he wants
    to use classes. I can already know that there will be a couple of programmers
    fighting OO tooth and nail, but the question is not if we are gonna be using
    classes, but how soon can we impliment them.

    And finally, I have been programming too long for me to be too prideful to
    admit mistakes. The longer you spend trying to prove you are right the longer
    you code goes without functioning correctly, and the more determined you
    get to prove your case. I have been there and done that, sure i may be young,
    and new to the professional environment, but i have learned the lesson the
    hard way in other situations, plenty of times.

    Thanks for opening my eyes/reminding me of many of the issues i will face
    here though.

    Christian

  7. #7
    Ralph D. Cole Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Thanks for accepting my apology.

    As you can probably tell most of my 'advice' was a thinly veiled recap of
    my own experiences. Experiences which I hope you will avoid. <g>

    I became an OO missionary back in the late '80s (when there were practically
    no tools available), and like all young missionaries was a bit fanatical
    and over-zealous. I plied my sermons diligently and ruthlessly, occasionally
    with the pyro-result of a CortÚs, but more often a bloody massacre on the
    beach with me running for my life to the long boats.

    Now, I have become on old man who enjoys sitting around and telling hair-raising
    stories about my life among the cannibals. <smile>

    You are part of a new group, better trained, better educated, and with better
    tools. As for the latter, IMHO, M$ VisioUML is a good flexible, modestly
    priced tool, and has the capacity to generate very real productivity boosts
    in Enterprise development.

    I wish you all success.

    -ralph


  8. #8
    Garry Mc Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Christian

    UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself


    Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of the
    VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which I'm
    assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform me
    otherwise.

    Regards

    Garry Mc


    "Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen it
    >many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
    >to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
    >sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
    > If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
    >reports, visio and other software included?
    >
    >I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
    >general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
    >i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i

    contemplate
    >learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand our
    >Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
    >blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
    >
    >Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
    >appreciated.
    >
    >Christian



  9. #9
    Christian Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Garry,

    Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
    and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or office.
    It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
    and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.

    Christian

    "Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >
    >Christian
    >
    >UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >
    >
    >Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    the
    >VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    I'm
    >assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform me
    >otherwise.
    >
    >Regards
    >
    >Garry Mc



  10. #10
    Jaco de Villiers Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Christian,

    I am late to the conversation... can you please elaborate on how Visio2002
    integrates with vs.net. I have a similar setup that yours WinXp,OfficeXp,VS.Net
    + VS6..... + Visio2002 (upgraded from Visio2000).

    My Visio is only integrated in the IDE of VS6 but not in VS.NET. Have you
    installed any addisional stuff from the CD to get it integrated into VS.Net?

    Regards

    Jaco de Villiers

    "Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >Garry,
    >
    >Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
    >and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or

    office.
    > It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
    >and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
    >
    >Christian
    >
    >"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Christian
    >>
    >>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >>
    >>
    >>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    >the
    >>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    >I'm
    >>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform

    me
    >>otherwise.
    >>
    >>Regards
    >>
    >>Garry Mc

    >



  11. #11
    John Milton Hilliar Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    I was given a copy by microsoft at some function or other and loaded it onto
    win2000 neat stuff .... I have'nt programmed with it yet
    Many Thanks
    John


    "Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >Garry,
    >
    >Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
    >and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or

    office.
    > It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
    >and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
    >
    >Christian
    >
    >"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Christian
    >>
    >>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >>
    >>
    >>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    >the
    >>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    >I'm
    >>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform

    me
    >>otherwise.
    >>
    >>Regards
    >>
    >>Garry Mc

    >



  12. #12
    Christian Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    First of all Ralph...

    Thanks again for your advice from experience, its nice to have somebody that
    has done this for years come in and share past experiences.

    Jaco,

    I do not have vb6 on the box, which may have messed up the setup of visio
    2002 on your box, i dont really know. I have not done a whole lof of work
    in visio yet to know how it the 2 work together, but i know that the reverse
    engineer immediately brought visio up along with a diagram of the project
    i was working in. We may have gotten a special version of .NET here at work
    i dont know what exactly is floating around, i just installed the 8 CD's
    that where sent here. We now have DVD versions, but i dont think anybody
    has installed it off of the DVD yet.

    Christian



    "Jaco de Villiers" <jacodv_32@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >Christian,
    >
    >I am late to the conversation... can you please elaborate on how Visio2002
    >integrates with vs.net. I have a similar setup that yours WinXp,OfficeXp,VS.Net
    >+ VS6..... + Visio2002 (upgraded from Visio2000).
    >
    >My Visio is only integrated in the IDE of VS6 but not in VS.NET. Have you
    >installed any addisional stuff from the CD to get it integrated into VS.Net?
    >
    >Regards
    >
    >Jaco de Villiers
    >
    >"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Garry,
    >>
    >>Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office

    xp
    >>and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or

    >office.
    >> It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
    >>and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
    >>
    >>Christian
    >>
    >>"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Christian
    >>>
    >>>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >>>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    >>the
    >>>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    >>I'm
    >>>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform

    >me
    >>>otherwise.
    >>>
    >>>Regards
    >>>
    >>>Garry Mc

    >>

    >



  13. #13
    john milton hilliar Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Watts Visio huh ??

    "Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >
    >Christian
    >
    >UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >
    >
    >Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    the
    >VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    I'm
    >assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform me
    >otherwise.
    >
    >Regards
    >
    >Garry Mc
    >
    >
    >"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen

    it
    >>many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
    >>to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
    >>sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
    >> If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
    >>reports, visio and other software included?
    >>
    >>I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
    >>general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
    >>i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i

    >contemplate
    >>learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand

    our
    >>Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
    >>blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
    >>
    >>Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
    >>appreciated.
    >>
    >>Christian

    >



  14. #14
    john milton hilliar Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    oops i mean is it like something that uses yout screen / tv as a video camera
    ???

    "john milton hilliar" <jmh1@freemail.absa.co.za> wrote:
    >
    >Watts Visio huh ??
    >
    >"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Christian
    >>
    >>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >>
    >>
    >>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    >the
    >>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    >I'm
    >>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform

    me
    >>otherwise.
    >>
    >>Regards
    >>
    >>Garry Mc
    >>
    >>
    >>"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen

    >it
    >>>many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i

    started
    >>>to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it

    and
    >>>sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
    >>> If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
    >>>reports, visio and other software included?
    >>>
    >>>I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats

    the
    >>>general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
    >>>i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should

    i
    >>contemplate
    >>>learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand

    >our
    >>>Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in

    the
    >>>blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
    >>>
    >>>Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
    >>>appreciated.
    >>>
    >>>Christian

    >>

    >



  15. #15
    Garry Mc Guest

    Re: Anybody using Visio???


    Christian

    I think you might have gotten it as part of the Enterprise Edition of .NET.
    Our company recently received a copy of it. If anyone out there has installed
    the Enterprise edition, I'd be interested to know if there's anything worth
    the effort of putting it on over the Professional version.

    For the person who asked what Visio was. Visio is a technical drawing application.
    In the context of this discussion its main use is creating UML diagrams.
    These are diagrams used to describe an object model, from this diagram you
    can create the objects (well in theory). Although much of the 'business'
    logic will be in other documents. The product also allows the ability to
    take an existing project and covert it (reverse engineer) into a diagram
    in UML notation. I personally didn't like the way Visio 2000 did its job,
    as it put a bunch of Get/Set accessors in the diagram. Made it look really
    ugly.

    Garry Mc

    "Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >Garry,
    >
    >Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
    >and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or

    office.
    > It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
    >and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
    >
    >Christian
    >
    >"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Christian
    >>
    >>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
    >>
    >>
    >>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
    >>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of

    >the
    >>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which

    >I'm
    >>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform

    me
    >>otherwise.
    >>
    >>Regards
    >>
    >>Garry Mc

    >



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