Anybody using Visio???

[Christian]

As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen it
many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
reports, visio and other software included?

I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i contemplate
learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand our
Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???

Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
appreciated.

Christian

[Ralph D. Cole]

"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>
>As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen it
>many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
>to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
>sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
> If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
>reports, visio and other software included?
> ...

It is my understanding that Visio-UML will be packaged as part of the "Enterprise"
offering. Providing a complete Modeling tool is a "new" entry by M$, (Visual
Modeler was limited to class diagrams only, with terrible paper), so is possible
it will be basically a "come-on" add-in at no charge. Kind of like what they
did with Visual SourceSafe. (Just a guess - as I said, I really don't know
how they are going to handle it.)

> ...
>I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
>general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
>i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i
contemplate
>learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand our
>Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
>blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
> ...


We just had a lively discussion on using UML in the DevX vb.oop newsgroup.
You might want to take a look at those threads.

IMHO: The first impact of a developer using UML is the reverse-engineering.
Reverse-engineering the model from code allows a programmer to better see
how various OO patterns relate to code, makes 'comment' and documentation,
easier to handle, and provides a good general over-all view of the "forest"
removed from the "code-trees".

This is important, because contrary to what the "Purest" would have you believe.
Designing a project and then using UML to generate code is a difficult process,
especially for someone new to OO analysis/design.
Most developers are not adequately trained to use UML, and it can become
a fustrating and useless exercise. But they KNOW code. Writing code then
generating UML is a great and simple way to learn UML. After awhile the developer
will start to see UML and invision the implementation.

> ...
>Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>Christian

I use UML all the time in my development. My primary tool is Rational Rose,
but I used Visual Modeler in those shops that did not choose to use Rose.
IMHO: UML forms a keystone productivity tool within any serious OO effort.

Been playing with the version supplied with VS.NET and I like what I see
so far. A relatively inexpensive tool has been needed for quite awhile now.
Functionality appears to be not too far from Rose. I also like the Object
Library and the scripts are in VBA.

Rational Rose is great, but the scripts take a long time to learn and it
is NOT cheap, it is essentially out of the range of the average software
shop. Less than a third of the shops I contracted with, that supplied Enterprise
to their developers, had Rational Rose in house.

To me the idea of a full-blown modeling tool as part of the package is pretty
exciting. But then I am an OO geek.

[Christian]

Ralph,

Thanks for the reply. I really think the way i want to go is to use uml
to model our software. Most programmers here are old school VB'ers and have
not had any experience with classes or other basic ideas of a true OO language.
I think that once they see the design in UML perhaps they may start to see
the use of Classes in code, and learn faster how to impliment classes.

My experience in UML is limited to about half a year of RR, but i have been
looking at Visio and doing some reverse engineering with other code for examples.
We are not going to really start rewriting our code till probly around early
december or so, but i can make a basic model of everything to build on when
we do start writing (even if just for presentations). If it where my choice,
and i where writing my own code for myself i would probly not waste my time,
but since this code is not just for me, its for everybody and everybody after
us, i think its my responsibility to make it as easy and illustrated as possible
for the next set of programmers.

Any tips other tips for UML design would be greatly appreciated.

Christian

[Ralph D. Cole]

"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Ralph,
>
>Thanks for the reply. I really think the way i want to go is to use uml
>to model our software.
> ...

Tip One: Your first model will suck.
Remember when you had 6 months, a year, of programming? How good was the
code? It probably worked OK, but it likely bares little resemblance to what
you would write today. Learning to design is identical to learning to program.
Read everything, open Visio and design, borrow other's ideas, open Visio
and redesign, design, design, design. Just like programming, the right stuff
doesn't come from a book or magical insight, it comes from practice, practice,
practice.

Over-all, don't worry if your model is less eloquent than a design the Meyer's,
Liberty's, and Fowler's of the world would come up with, because you have
something they don't have - in-depth knowledge of YOUR domain. Your stuff
will always inevitability work better than the book stuff.

> ...
>Most programmers here are old school VB'ers and have
>not had any experience with classes or other basic ideas of a true OO language.
> I think that once they see the design in UML perhaps they may start to
see
>the use of Classes in code, and learn faster how to impliment classes.

> ''''

Tip Two: Don't make this assumption.
True OO development, or rather increased development using OO tools, is a
paradign shift for anyone. Having experience with a OOPL is certainly a head-start
but no insurance against the normal reaction of resistance to change.

The OO cycle is Analysis, Design, Implementation, then back to Analysis.
Programmer's are not analysts, are not designers, they are Implementors.
Not because they aren't smart enough or don't know enough, but because that
is not their job. They want to do their job, they probably enjoy doing their
job. Whatever you do it has to relate to their job, how they have been doing
things, and why this new "UML crap" is a good idea.

In the beginning you can offer the model - generate some framework code and
say this is the starting point. Get them to generate UML as they go along.
This helps people to learn UML faster, checks to make sure they are not straying
from the model, and is the ulimate test of whether the current model is worth
a ****.

Stress the 'comment' savings, the easier documentation, and visualization
aspects of using UML. Schedule brown bag lunches to cover the basic 'syntax'.
Keep asking and tolerating open discussions. When you're wrong admit it,
when you're right show by example.

Tip Three: You are probably wrong!
Remembering 'Tip One' don't dismiss ALL objections out of hand. You might
be wrong! If it is your first or second Model, the possibility of being wrong
is unfortunately rather likely. Be ready to change. Remember it is an OO
'CYCLE'. If after a couple of weeks the implementors haven't found several
good reasons to doubt the analyis, then you have built your waterfalls too
high, the salmon can't get up-stream, and future generations are threatened.

Tip Four: Don't stray.
At some point you will have to put your foot down. "Yeah, using that J# Oyster
object is probably good idea, but ...". Change the model not the plan. If
you find yourself in a corner, don't admit the exception, hit Select-All,
Delete, and go back to the door and redesign. Designs are no more persistent
than code.

>My experience in UML is limited to about half a year of RR, but i have been
>looking at Visio and doing some reverse engineering with other code for
examples.
> We are not going to really start rewriting our code till probly around
early
>december or so, but i can make a basic model of everything to build on when
>we do start writing (even if just for presentations).

> If it where my choice,
>and i where writing my own code for myself i would probly not waste my time,
>but since this code is not just for me, its for everybody and everybody
after
>us, i think its my responsibility to make it as easy and illustrated as
possible
>for the next set of programmers.
>
>Any tips other tips for UML design would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Christian
>

Tip Five: It is never a bad idea to model.
One developer - one simple utility.
20+ developers - a distributed app with a hundred utilities.
It never hurts to model. Without a model you are blind. Besides like I mentioned
- to learn how to design, you must design. Never miss an opportunity.

-ralph

[Ralph]

Christian,

Just re-read my reply, Boy, do I sound like a pedantic, "know-it-all" jerk.
I sound rather disagreeable, with a pitch just slightly below screaming.
<g>

An unforunate artifact of being an uneducated person, is the inability to
correctly chose words and tone.

I apologize if I was a little offensive. I was just trying to offer some
tips, but got a little intense. (Hey I told you I was an OO geek. <smile>)


-ralph

[Christian]

Ralph,

I appreciate the tips you gave me, even if they did come off a little harshly
(at first =) ).

Anyway, from the time i frist started learning OO style programming, i have
always modeled my code. Whether i used RR, pen and paper, or simply contained
it in my head i always think everything out before i start work. Occasionally
before i finishing modeling i will run a couple trial runs to see if an idea
works (in an oversimplified situation) but before i write any code i plan
on using in the final project everything first gets modeled, and stepped
through (in every conceivable situation). I understand the princible of
getting the code correct, not written then hacked to work (of which i am
great at hacking code to work =) ).

So modeling the code is not an option, whether its worth the time and effort
to learn and utilize visio was really what i was asking. i did not know
how functional visio was and it seems as though i have found my answer.


As far as the other programmers here, only 2 of us have had any experience
whatsoever with an OO language. The head programmer has never used any OOP
but after approaching him with my ideas about how our programming could be
(in addition to the massive upgrade we will have to make to .NET) he wants
to use classes. I can already know that there will be a couple of programmers
fighting OO tooth and nail, but the question is not if we are gonna be using
classes, but how soon can we impliment them.

And finally, I have been programming too long for me to be too prideful to
admit mistakes. The longer you spend trying to prove you are right the longer
you code goes without functioning correctly, and the more determined you
get to prove your case. I have been there and done that, sure i may be young,
and new to the professional environment, but i have learned the lesson the
hard way in other situations, plenty of times.

Thanks for opening my eyes/reminding me of many of the issues i will face
here though.

Christian

[Ralph D. Cole]

Thanks for accepting my apology.

As you can probably tell most of my 'advice' was a thinly veiled recap of
my own experiences. Experiences which I hope you will avoid. <g>

I became an OO missionary back in the late '80s (when there were practically
no tools available), and like all young missionaries was a bit fanatical
and over-zealous. I plied my sermons diligently and ruthlessly, occasionally
with the pyro-result of a Cortés, but more often a bloody massacre on the
beach with me running for my life to the long boats.

Now, I have become on old man who enjoys sitting around and telling hair-raising
stories about my life among the cannibals. <smile>

You are part of a new group, better trained, better educated, and with better
tools. As for the latter, IMHO, M$ VisioUML is a good flexible, modestly
priced tool, and has the capacity to generate very real productivity boosts
in Enterprise development.

I wish you all success.

-ralph

[Garry Mc]

Christian

UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself


Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of the
VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which I'm
assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform me
otherwise.

Regards

Garry Mc


"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>
>As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen it
>many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
>to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
>sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
> If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
>reports, visio and other software included?
>
>I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
>general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
>i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i
contemplate
>learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand our
>Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
>blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
>
>Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>Christian

[Christian]

Garry,

Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or office.
It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.

Christian

"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>
>Christian
>
>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>
>
>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
the
>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
I'm
>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform me
>otherwise.
>
>Regards
>
>Garry Mc

[Jaco de Villiers]

Christian,

I am late to the conversation... can you please elaborate on how Visio2002
integrates with vs.net. I have a similar setup that yours WinXp,OfficeXp,VS.Net
+ VS6..... + Visio2002 (upgraded from Visio2000).

My Visio is only integrated in the IDE of VS6 but not in VS.NET. Have you
installed any addisional stuff from the CD to get it integrated into VS.Net?

Regards

Jaco de Villiers

"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Garry,
>
>Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
>and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or
office.
> It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
>and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
>
>Christian
>
>"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>>
>>
>>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
>the
>>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
>I'm
>>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform
me
>>otherwise.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Garry Mc
>

[John Milton Hilliar]

I was given a copy by microsoft at some function or other and loaded it onto
win2000 neat stuff .... I have'nt programmed with it yet
Many Thanks
John


"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Garry,
>
>Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
>and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or
office.
> It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
>and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
>
>Christian
>
>"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>>
>>
>>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
>the
>>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
>I'm
>>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform
me
>>otherwise.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Garry Mc
>

[Christian]

First of all Ralph...

Thanks again for your advice from experience, its nice to have somebody that
has done this for years come in and share past experiences.

Jaco,

I do not have vb6 on the box, which may have messed up the setup of visio
2002 on your box, i dont really know. I have not done a whole lof of work
in visio yet to know how it the 2 work together, but i know that the reverse
engineer immediately brought visio up along with a diagram of the project
i was working in. We may have gotten a special version of .NET here at work
i dont know what exactly is floating around, i just installed the 8 CD's
that where sent here. We now have DVD versions, but i dont think anybody
has installed it off of the DVD yet.

Christian



"Jaco de Villiers" <jacodv_32@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Christian,
>
>I am late to the conversation... can you please elaborate on how Visio2002
>integrates with vs.net. I have a similar setup that yours WinXp,OfficeXp,VS.Net
>+ VS6..... + Visio2002 (upgraded from Visio2000).
>
>My Visio is only integrated in the IDE of VS6 but not in VS.NET. Have you
>installed any addisional stuff from the CD to get it integrated into VS.Net?
>
>Regards
>
>Jaco de Villiers
>
>"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Garry,
>>
>>Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office
xp
>>and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or
>office.
>> It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
>>and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Christian
>>>
>>>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>>>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
>>the
>>>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
>>I'm
>>>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform
>me
>>>otherwise.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Garry Mc
>>
>

[john milton hilliar]

Watts Visio huh ??

"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>
>Christian
>
>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>
>
>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
the
>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
I'm
>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform me
>otherwise.
>
>Regards
>
>Garry Mc
>
>
>"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen
it
>>many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i started
>>to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it and
>>sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
>> If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
>>reports, visio and other software included?
>>
>>I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats the
>>general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
>>i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should i
>contemplate
>>learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand
our
>>Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in the
>>blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
>>
>>Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
>>appreciated.
>>
>>Christian
>

[john milton hilliar]

oops i mean is it like something that uses yout screen / tv as a video camera
???

"john milton hilliar" <jmh1@freemail.absa.co.za> wrote:
>
>Watts Visio huh ??
>
>"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>>
>>
>>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
>the
>>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
>I'm
>>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform
me
>>otherwise.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Garry Mc
>>
>>
>>"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>As i was looking around for .NET i came across (even though i had seen
>it
>>>many times before it never hit me) reverse engineer in Visio. Well i
started
>>>to think...well i never installed visio on this box. Well i tried it
and
>>>sure enough it ran visio. Is Visio gonna be included in vb.net release???
>>> If so...how much is microsoft planning on selling .net for with crystal
>>>reports, visio and other software included?
>>>
>>>I have never used visio before, but i have used rational rose. Whats
the
>>>general consesus on using uml??? Will it help in the long run, or should
>>>i stick to straight code??? Since we are redesigning our code should
i
>>contemplate
>>>learning and using visio even if it just makes it easier to understand
>our
>>>Software??? And finally is it better to design in visio then fill in
the
>>>blanks, or design in .NET and reverse engineer afterwards???
>>>
>>>Any other thoughts or advice on Visio, or uml in general would be greatly
>>>appreciated.
>>>
>>>Christian
>>
>

[Garry Mc]

Christian

I think you might have gotten it as part of the Enterprise Edition of .NET.
Our company recently received a copy of it. If anyone out there has installed
the Enterprise edition, I'd be interested to know if there's anything worth
the effort of putting it on over the Professional version.

For the person who asked what Visio was. Visio is a technical drawing application.
In the context of this discussion its main use is creating UML diagrams.
These are diagrams used to describe an object model, from this diagram you
can create the objects (well in theory). Although much of the 'business'
logic will be in other documents. The product also allows the ability to
take an existing project and covert it (reverse engineer) into a diagram
in UML notation. I personally didn't like the way Visio 2000 did its job,
as it put a bunch of Get/Set accessors in the diagram. Made it look really
ugly.

Garry Mc

"Christian" <crs117@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Garry,
>
>Well the only 3 things i have installed on this box are win xp, office xp
>and studio xp...and i seriously doubt visio came with either the os, or
office.
> It is visio 2002....(i cannot recall what else it says). But its there
>and it seems to be seemlessly integrated with v.net.
>
>Christian
>
>"Garry Mc" <garrymc@itrswebservices.com> wrote:
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>UML is good once you get a hang of it... Hmmm still getting the hang myself
>>
>>
>>Oh I'm using Visio 2000 and have 2002 (haven't really tried it out yet),
>>but haven't seen VisioUML anywhere. You made it sound like its part of
>the
>>VS.NET CD's, if so where is it? I have the professional version, which
>I'm
>>assuming is the only Public Beta available. However, you could inform
me
>>otherwise.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Garry Mc
>