Addition to the VB Community

[Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]]

Thank you, Rob, for the very nice introduction.

This seems like a great opportunity to talk a little bit more about how together
we'll continue to make great things happen with Visual Basic.NET and make
your jobs better and easier -- and more fun.

This new role is very exciting. It integrates two things that I love: community
/ business building efforts and architecture / design.

Core to my job will be listening -- to each of you. You'll discover that
I am open and candid. Of course, that means sometimes we'll disagree. For
me, that's great because it's only through sharing different perspectives
and arguing passionately will we be able to create new and better opportunities.


We’ll work together to establish a dialogue and to build trust. You can expect
to see me at conferences, user groups, etc., to find out what you like and
don’t like about VB.NET. What worries you about moving to it? What types
of business problems do you regularly have to solve?

I’ll learn from you and take the knowledge that you have taught me to make
this product the best RAD tool in the .NET family. This will take some time.
But we’ll get there -- together.

Let me also share a little bit about my background so you may feel more comfortable
in knowing that I will indeed bring this philosophy to all of our interactions.


First and most important, I use the very products for which I am accountable
so I care deeply about how they work.

For the past 15 years, I’ve been working with Microsoft development tools
including Visual Basic (all the way back to Basic under DOS) and Visual FoxPro
(and all its earlier incarnations).

Learning, improving things and sharing knowledge are *very* important to
me and building a community is critical to being effective at growing our
skills.

While serving as CIO and partner of Flash Creative Management, a business
strategy and technology consulting company, I programmed and managed teams
of outstanding developers and people whose commitment to learning and growth
was evident in the way that they shared their knowledge by speaking at conferences
and writing articles.

I have presented at Tech Ed on Design Patterns and at other major conferences
here and abroad, and have written books and articles on development tools
and methods. I was lead architect for the Codebook and COMCodebook frameworks
– a leading Visual FoxPro community based framework that provides for large-scale
distributed system development -- and that was regularly enhanced and distributed
freely to the community.

The big picture matters to me, too. We are all here to solve our clients'
problems.

After Flash was sold to GoAmerica Communications, a publicly traded telecommunications
(wireless internet) company, I served as CIO there. My technology team created
an operational support system that ties together multiple disparate applications
using an XML message-based infrastructure. This system also included an application
using .NET.

So as you can see, I truly do love the promise that technology brings to
solving business problems and what really turns me on is helping people grow
in their knowledge and in the work that they do.

Your success will be my success and I am truly looking forward to speaking
with you and working together. Please feel free to e-mail me (yag@Microsoft.com)
- I promise to respond as quickly as I can. I look forward to meeting as
many of you as possible at VS-Live...

Thanks.

yag

[Rob Copeland [MSFT]]

It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
..NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).

Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We depend
on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While this
product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.

Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking for
over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing and
XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such a
great product without you.

One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can do
an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we do.
That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
users.

In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
(Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great things
that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus on
our customers.

Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on the
VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual Basic
and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only community
experience, but also real-world product usage.

Alan will be working to:

· Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB community

· Create a better forum for feature requests

· Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community

· Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by making
sure technical information is more readily available, and community sites
are more easily found

In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in the
design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
development team to:

· Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest way
to build .NET applications

· Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
tomorrow's real-world problems

· Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team, gathers
from the community into the design process

It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
will be sending more details of his plans soon.

Thanks,
-Rob Copeland
Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
Microsoft Corporation
robertco@microsoft.com

[Ian Lowe]

Hi, Yag, Rob,

I was wondering if you could give me a hand. I've been using VB.NET since
Beta 1 last January, and VB6 for the last 3 years. My progress in learning
VB, and programming in general, has been significantly helped by the VB and
Microsoft communities. I've recently reached the point where I feel
confident enough in my skills and experience to contribute something back to
the wonderful Visual Basic community. However, I could use some pointers to
the best ways to help give back.

Perhaps you could provide me, and others who are unsure how to contribute,
some pointers on the best way to provide community support, feedback to you
and your team, and other ways to improve the VB community.

Also, I'd like to say "Great Job!" to the VB and .NET team on a wonderful
product. I've already deployed two smallish (c. 8 KLOC combined in VB &
HTML) ASP.NET apps built with VB.NET. I can say, without a doubt, that
VB.NET is significantly more powerful, easier to use, and more productive
than VB6. Please express my sincerest thanks and congratulations to your
team.

Ian.

[Ray Collins]

Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask the
majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
for.

I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has Microsoft
communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how much
it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for M$
to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
well.

My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately its
too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It will
be interesting to see what happens now.


"Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
> It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
> .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
> available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
> (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
>
> Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We
depend
> on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While
this
> product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
> shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
>
> Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
> platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking
for
> over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing and
> XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
> feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such a
> great product without you.
>
> One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can
do
> an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we
do.
> That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
> community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
> provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
> users.
>
> In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
> (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great
things
> that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus
on
> our customers.
>
> Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
> many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on the
> VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual
Basic
> and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only community
> experience, but also real-world product usage.
>
> Alan will be working to:
>
> · Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB
community
>
> · Create a better forum for feature requests
>
> · Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
>
> · Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by
making
> sure technical information is more readily available, and community sites
> are more easily found
>
> In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in
the
> design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
> development team to:
>
> · Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest
way
> to build .NET applications
>
> · Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
> tomorrow's real-world problems
>
> · Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team, gathers
> from the community into the design process
>
> It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
> join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
> will be sending more details of his plans soon.
>
> Thanks,
> -Rob Copeland
> Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
> Microsoft Corporation
> robertco@microsoft.com
>
>
>
>
>

[Ray Collins]

Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
^^^
Hmm, why didn't the spell checker know that I meant the other weight ? :-)

"Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3c48f29f@147.208.176.211...
> Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
> minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
the
> majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
> for.
>
> I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has
Microsoft
> communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how
much
> it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for
M$
> to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
> well.
>
> My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
> direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately its
> too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It
will
> be interesting to see what happens now.
>
>
> "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
> > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual
Studio
> > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
> > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
> > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
> >
> > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We
> depend
> > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While
> this
> > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
> > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
> >
> > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
> > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking
> for
> > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing
and
> > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
> > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such
a
> > great product without you.
> >
> > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can
> do
> > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we
> do.
> > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
> > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
> > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
> > users.
> >
> > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
> > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great
> things
> > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus
> on
> > our customers.
> >
> > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
> > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on
the
> > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual
> Basic
> > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only
community
> > experience, but also real-world product usage.
> >
> > Alan will be working to:
> >
> > · Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB
> community
> >
> > · Create a better forum for feature requests
> >
> > · Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
> >
> > · Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by
> making
> > sure technical information is more readily available, and community
sites
> > are more easily found
> >
> > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in
> the
> > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
> > development team to:
> >
> > · Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest
> way
> > to build .NET applications
> >
> > · Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
> > tomorrow's real-world problems
> >
> > · Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team,
gathers
> > from the community into the design process
> >
> > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
> > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
> > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Rob Copeland
> > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
> > Microsoft Corporation
> > robertco@microsoft.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kunle Odutola]

"Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3c48f29f@147.208.176.211...
> Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
> minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
the
> majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
> for.

That is the functions of the customer service and/or support function within
MS. They already do this (and just how many users respond to _any_
surveys?).

> I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has
Microsoft
> communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how
much
> it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for
M$
> to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
> well.
>
> My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
> direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately its
> too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It
will
> be interesting to see what happens now.

Perhaps you care to explain to us minions in the minority how and when _you_
became the voice of the majority of VB users. You've just claimed that even
MS hasn't been able to survey it's users or listen to them, so just how did
you manage surpass MS in this regard?

Kunle

>
>
> "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
> > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual
Studio
> > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
> > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
> > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
> >
> > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We
> depend
> > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While
> this
> > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
> > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
> >
> > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
> > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking
> for
> > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing
and
> > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
> > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such
a
> > great product without you.
> >
> > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can
> do
> > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we
> do.
> > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
> > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
> > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
> > users.
> >
> > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
> > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great
> things
> > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus
> on
> > our customers.
> >
> > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
> > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on
the
> > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual
> Basic
> > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only
community
> > experience, but also real-world product usage.
> >
> > Alan will be working to:
> >
> > · Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB
> community
> >
> > · Create a better forum for feature requests
> >
> > · Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
> >
> > · Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by
> making
> > sure technical information is more readily available, and community
sites
> > are more easily found
> >
> > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in
> the
> > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
> > development team to:
> >
> > · Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest
> way
> > to build .NET applications
> >
> > · Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
> > tomorrow's real-world problems
> >
> > · Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team,
gathers
> > from the community into the design process
> >
> > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
> > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
> > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Rob Copeland
> > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
> > Microsoft Corporation
> > robertco@microsoft.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Ray Collins]

"Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
message news:3c494967@147.208.176.211...
>
> "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:3c48f29f@147.208.176.211...
> > Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of
the
> > minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
> the
> > majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use
it
> > for.
>
> That is the functions of the customer service and/or support function
within
> MS. They already do this (and just how many users respond to _any_
> surveys?).

Well they don't seem to be doing this. As I said nobody every asked me, and
I have never met a VB user or any other M$ product user who has ever been
contacted after registering their product for anything but advertising for
the next release. And who rings Microsoft support anyway? The first thing
they ask for is a credit card number, and even if you paid them unless its a
bug they don't support development languages.


> > I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has
> Microsoft
> > communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how
> much
> > it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for
> M$
> > to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
> > well.
> >
> > My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
> > direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately
its
> > too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It
> will
> > be interesting to see what happens now.
>
> Perhaps you care to explain to us minions in the minority how and when
_you_
> became the voice of the majority of VB users. You've just claimed that
even
> MS hasn't been able to survey it's users or listen to them, so just how
did
> you manage surpass MS in this regard?
>
> Kunle

It's just my 2 cents worth, based on personal experience, chatting with
various people and scanning various newsgroups, the conclusion I have
reached is that people are not happy with VB.net. I must say that this is
the most Pro Microsoft newsgroup I have seen in a long time, maybe even to
the point of religious fervour.

>
> >
> >
> > "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
> > > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual
> Studio
> > > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It
is
> > > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription
site
> > > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
> > >
> > > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We
> > depend
> > > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product.
While
> > this
> > > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
> > > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
> > >
> > > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier
Microsoft
> > > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been
asking
> > for
> > > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing
> and
> > > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of
your
> > > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced
such
> a
> > > great product without you.
> > >
> > > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we
can
> > do
> > > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what
we
> > do.
> > > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
> > > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
> > > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with
other
> > > users.
> > >
> > > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing
team
> > > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great
> > things
> > > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced
focus
> > on
> > > our customers.
> > >
> > > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag"
to
> > > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on
> the
> > > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual
> > Basic
> > > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only
> community
> > > experience, but also real-world product usage.
> > >
> > > Alan will be working to:
> > >
> > > · Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB
> > community
> > >
> > > · Create a better forum for feature requests
> > >
> > > · Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
> > >
> > > · Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by
> > making
> > > sure technical information is more readily available, and community
> sites
> > > are more easily found
> > >
> > > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved
in
> > the
> > > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
> > > development team to:
> > >
> > > · Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the
easiest
> > way
> > > to build .NET applications
> > >
> > > · Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
> > > tomorrow's real-world problems
> > >
> > > · Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team,
> gathers
> > > from the community into the design process
> > >
> > > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team.
Please
> > > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com.
Alan
> > > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -Rob Copeland
> > > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
> > > Microsoft Corporation
> > > robertco@microsoft.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:34:26 -0800, "Rob Copeland [MSFT]"
<robertco@microsoft.com> wrote:

>It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
>.NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
>available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
>(http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).

While I wish Microsoft every success with their new product, I have to
say that VB.NET will be a great disappointment to a huge number of VB
developers. The VB.NET product is hugely incompatible with previous
versions, requiring a lot, if not most, of classic VB code to be
rewritten/restructured for the transition to .NET. VB.NET is not the
simple tool for a huge number of business and other apps that classic
VB is. Dan Appleman said in his book, 'Moving to VB.NET': "Everything
You Know Is Now Obsolete". I am assured by several authors that to
take advantage of the fully OOP nature of VB.NET and realise its
assumed advantages will require developers to learn and practise OOP.
I think you either do not know how many lack OOP knowledge, or you do
know and don't care anyway. My contention is that the overwhelming
majority of VB users currently make very little use, if any, of OOP
-- because the simplicity of straightforward, non-obfusfactory
procedural programming was the very nub of what made classic VB the
most significant and most widely used programming language of all
time. VB users cottoned on to VB almost the very minute it came out in
version 1. They did that because they could see a direct link between
what they were using up to then, namely, QuickBASIC and Basic 7 PDS,
and Visual Basic. If they had wanted to get into more complex ways of
working, well, of course, as we know, there are always plenty of
people around who like making things complex!

When those VB users hear about VB.NET, they may think there will be
another direct link for them again, knowing what was necessary for
them to move from VB1 through 6. Well, I think you'll agree: They're
in for a surprise. And it's not going to be pleasant. In fact, I'd
call it a shock.

So, just pass the word to His Billness and Stevie "Developers"
Ballmer, and anyone else you might meet up with in the campus car
park, that there are certainly some erstwhile classic VB users out
here who are utterly, totally, and very wetly pissed off with the way
things are going.

But in future, you're going to be listening to us, right?

Yeah, right!

MM

[Kunle Odutola]

"Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3c4952b0@147.208.176.211...
>
> "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote
in
> message news:3c494967@147.208.176.211...

> > That is the functions of the customer service and/or support function
> within
> > MS. They already do this (and just how many users respond to _any_
> > surveys?).
>
> Well they don't seem to be doing this. As I said nobody every asked me,
and
> I have never met a VB user or any other M$ product user who has ever been
> contacted after registering their product for anything but advertising for
> the next release. And who rings Microsoft support anyway? The first thing
> they ask for is a credit card number, and even if you paid them unless its
a
> bug they don't support development languages.

There is a Developer Support group within Microsoft.

> > Perhaps you care to explain to us minions in the minority how and when
> _you_
> > became the voice of the majority of VB users. You've just claimed that
> even
> > MS hasn't been able to survey it's users or listen to them, so just how
> did
> > you manage surpass MS in this regard?
> >
> > Kunle
>
> It's just my 2 cents worth, based on personal experience, chatting with
> various people and scanning various newsgroups, the conclusion I have
> reached is that people are not happy with VB.net. I must say that this is
> the most Pro Microsoft newsgroup I have seen in a long time, maybe even to
> the point of religious fervour.

Ray,

Many VB users (I'd guess a _very_ significant monority at the least) have
problems with VB6, they also had problems with VB5, VB4 and all other
previous versions. So they definitely would have a problem with VB.NET too.
The reasons are varied and oftem stem from the accidental programmers
syndrome IMO. The cure to their problems is most often training or at least
access to learning material that communities such as the one we are both
posting in provides. MVPs play a definitely positive role in this regards.
As does MS - directly (MSDN + extended early access & beta programmes,
Gotdotnet, MSPress etc) and indirectly (MVP programme, training,
certification, involvement with VB communities like this).

I have no doubt that the move to VB.NET will be easier for some than
others - this has always been the case. I also have no doubt that were the
crux of the changes in VB.NET not implemented, there would have been a mass
exodus to other more capable yet easy-to-use .NET languages (e.g. C#) that
would have killed of VB in due course. Of course, there are isolated areas
in which I think MS could have done more, less, nothing or just differently
in the move to VB.NET. I am sure you do too as does everyone else. Even MS
folks ;-).

Ultimately, we have in VB.NET, a potent combination of the classic simplicty
of the VB language and the power and expression of traditional OO languages.
All that VB.NET _needs_ now IMO, is the return of true Edit & Continue
functionality - this is promised for the next release of VS.NET (perhaps in
a Service Pack pls Rob and Yag).

Kunle

[Ed]

kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Mitchell) wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:34:26 -0800, "Rob Copeland [MSFT]"
><robertco@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>But in future, you're going to be listening to us, right?
>
>Yeah, right!
>
>MM

With you all the way, Mike. It's time that customers hit Microsoft over
the head with a 2 by 4. This YAG announcement is Microsoft's way of throwing
us a bone. Microsoft pay attention. Listen to our concerns. Make our concerns
your concerns. If you do that, you will continue to be successful. If not,
then you will lose but not because you couldn't beat your competition. But
because you didn't listen to your customers.

[Mike Mitchell]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:09:30 +1100, "Ray Collins"
<Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote:

>............. I must say that this is
>the most Pro Microsoft newsgroup I have seen in a long time, maybe even to
>the point of religious fervour.

Heh, heh! That's why I'm here, Ray! To bring a little balance to all
the zealotry. They have to leave their hoods and crosses outside the
door when they enter my place of worship....classic VB!

MM

[Mike Mitchell]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:40:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
<kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>Ultimately, we have in VB.NET, a potent combination of the classic simplicty
>of the VB language and the power and expression of traditional OO languages.
>All that VB.NET _needs_ now IMO, is the return of true Edit & Continue
>functionality - this is promised for the next release of VS.NET (perhaps in
>a Service Pack pls Rob and Yag).

How can they bring back Edit & Continue without re-introducing an
interpreted version within the IDE? How would an interpreted version
work with all the OOP stuff and garbage collection, and be 100%
compatible with what MSIL wants? If they do bring it back, what's the
betting it will feel significantly different from the classic Edit &
Continue we know and love?

Anyway, that's only part of it. Your claim that VB.NET embodies "the
classic simplicity of the VB language" is derisory nonense. It
doesn't. It goes out of its way to be different from VB in very many
ways. I bet there isn't a classic VB programmer on the planet, new to
VB.NET, who will not notice quite considerable differences within ten
minutes of starting to use VB.NET. You're just talking up the apparent
similarity (i.e. it's got the word "BASIC" in its name) so that any
new visitor to this ng will assume that the differences are on a par
with those between VB3 and VB4.

MM

[Kunle Odutola]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c49bc54.636007@news.devx.com...
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:40:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
> <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> How can they bring back Edit & Continue without re-introducing an
> interpreted version within the IDE?

Who cares, as long it's back?

> How would an interpreted version
> work with all the OOP stuff and garbage collection, and be 100%
> compatible with what MSIL wants?

It isn't rocket science Mike. Read up on Java, Smalltalk et al....

> If they do bring it back, what's the
> betting it will feel significantly different from the classic Edit &
> Continue we know and love?

What's the betting it won't be significantly better just like VB.NET is
better than VB6?

> Anyway, that's only part of it. Your claim that VB.NET embodies "the
> classic simplicity of the VB language" is derisory nonense.

To you Mike. You already said that....

> I bet there isn't a classic VB programmer on the planet, new to
> VB.NET, who will not notice quite considerable differences within ten
> minutes of starting to use VB.NET.

Before that even. The [very involved] install process is the first clue....

> You're just talking up the apparent
> similarity (i.e. it's got the word "BASIC" in its name) so that any
> new visitor to this ng will assume that the differences are on a par
> with those between VB3 and VB4.

Wasn't that change supposed to be the end of VB too?

Kunle

[Mike Mitchell]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:44:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
<kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>Wasn't that change supposed to be the end of VB too?

No. The level of public outrage was by comparison merely in the range
of irritable mutterings.

MM

[Kunle Odutola]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c4aae0d.2305950@news.devx.com...
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:44:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
> <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Wasn't that change supposed to be the end of VB too?
>
> No. The level of public outrage was by comparison merely in the range
> of irritable mutterings.

Ooooohhhhh.......how quickly we forget!

Kunle