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Thread: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?

  1. #16
    ralph Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    "blackspy" <user@host.org> wrote:
    >
    >Java is not what's at the core of XP or any other OS, that's for sure. However,
    >I think you may be thinking of the recent announcements from many university's
    >that will no longer be using c++ to teach thier programming classes, but
    >are switching to Java, this is true. Java allows you to focus more on the
    >specifics of what you're trying to learn about while studying programming,
    >and not having to worry so much about language.
    > ...

    snip

    There has always been a problem with using C/C++ as a "first language". C++
    only came in wide use relatively recently because of it popularity and the
    general decline of other languages. By default - not by unanimous choice
    - you could say.

    It has always been a difficult dilemma for academia - chose a full-featured
    language and lose the concepts in the details or pick limited features and
    teach a couple of basic concepts avoiding the details. The "history" of seeking
    the ultimate "teaching language" is rather interesting in itself - some of
    its products have been BASIC, Pascal, ModulaII, etc. An old story - the search
    for that elusive Magic Bullet.

    Java is a useful alternative especially when used with a simpler O/S like
    Unix. But, it will present the same problems and suffer the same fate as
    its academic predecessors - for after all - a "subset" is only a "subset".

    It is analogous to the question - How do you teach someone to be a carpenter?
    Do you start off in a major wood shop with orbital, flat, oscillating sanders,
    and routers and datto, milling machines, lathes, bench grinder, dermel tools,
    carving, auto nail drivers, .... or do you give them a hammer, saw, and some
    chisels?

    Do you spend your time showing them how not to cut off their fingers, or
    do you show them how to assemble wood. Admittedly the results with the latter
    is often bulky and generally un-sightly - still you get to spend a lot more
    time talking about wood.

    Also - Who are your students? Most will not go on to be master carpenters.
    Some just want to learn enough to put up shelves in the garage. Why waste
    their time learning the in's and out's of all the router bits?

    The other side is - Who are your instructors? As the quality of a tool goes
    up the number of quality instructors goes down. There is a lot of "bad" C++
    being taught out there. A simpler tool might make it easier for the average
    TA to cope.

    But it is an old story - it's merely Java's turn to be the latest college
    fad.

    >
    > I doubt it though, that C/C++
    >will continue to be the choice for writing applications for Windows. VB.NET,
    >C# and Java are slowly but surely going to be the choice for writing stuff
    >like that.
    >


    One of the common myths is that C/C++ is currently the first choice for writing
    Windows Applications. Most Windows programs are written in VB and have been
    for quite a while. The exception being critical mission, games, and commercial
    applications. I don't see the later changing too dramatically in the near
    future.



  2. #17
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?

    In general, I think that the language of choice used in academia is very
    much irrelevant. In fact, I'm surprised that they have been using C++ to
    begin with. After all, real world programming and academic exercises
    (linked lists for the millionth time anybody?) are very different. For
    example, a student will be asked to implement a linked list from scratch
    whereas a real programmer (hopefully) will use STL instead. Let's
    remember that 10 years ago, the language of choice was Ada or Pascal but
    real world programmers never used these languages anywhere else, either
    so the belief that since students are now learning Java instead of C++
    doesn't say anything about their future programming language in the real
    world. Most likely, they won't be the ones who decide which language to
    use anyway; they'll simply have to use the language that their team or
    company uses, whether it's C++, Visual Basic or Fortran.
    As an aside, I remember that when one of the colleges announced that
    they were switching to Java (they must have assumed it would make them
    look for hip'n'cool), one of the talkbacks said: "I hope they will
    extend the amount of time for the exam" hinting at the inherent slowness
    of Java...
    Finally, the myth that Java is small and simple may been true during the
    days of JDK 1.0. Today, Java is a real monster. It has funky features
    such as weak and strong references, assertions (yay! after 20 years of
    service in C someone at Sun decided it was time Java had asserts too!),
    a new I/O library that supersedes the traditional library (again,
    they've just discovered the wonders of asynchronous I/O) and many many
    other changes and extensions. Sadly, they don't have templates yet so
    you still see heinous MFC-style containers such as FloatBuffer,
    ByteBuffer, LongBuffer and so on and so forth, instead of using a single
    generic container class. Why not go straight to C++ then and avoid the
    learning curve of Java designers in the first place?

    Danny

    ralph wrote:
    >
    > "blackspy" <user@host.org> wrote:
    > >
    > >Java is not what's at the core of XP or any other OS, that's for sure. However,
    > >I think you may be thinking of the recent announcements from many university's
    > >that will no longer be using c++ to teach thier programming classes, but
    > >are switching to Java, this is true. Java allows you to focus more on the
    > >specifics of what you're trying to learn about while studying programming,
    > >and not having to worry so much about language.
    > > ...

    > snip
    >
    > There has always been a problem with using C/C++ as a "first language". C++
    > only came in wide use relatively recently because of it popularity and the
    > general decline of other languages. By default - not by unanimous choice
    > - you could say.
    >
    > It has always been a difficult dilemma for academia - chose a full-featured
    > language and lose the concepts in the details or pick limited features and
    > teach a couple of basic concepts avoiding the details. The "history" of seeking
    > the ultimate "teaching language" is rather interesting in itself - some of
    > its products have been BASIC, Pascal, ModulaII, etc. An old story - the search
    > for that elusive Magic Bullet.
    >
    > Java is a useful alternative especially when used with a simpler O/S like
    > Unix. But, it will present the same problems and suffer the same fate as
    > its academic predecessors - for after all - a "subset" is only a "subset".
    >
    > It is analogous to the question - How do you teach someone to be a carpenter?
    > Do you start off in a major wood shop with orbital, flat, oscillating sanders,
    > and routers and datto, milling machines, lathes, bench grinder, dermel tools,
    > carving, auto nail drivers, .... or do you give them a hammer, saw, and some
    > chisels?
    >
    > Do you spend your time showing them how not to cut off their fingers, or
    > do you show them how to assemble wood. Admittedly the results with the latter
    > is often bulky and generally un-sightly - still you get to spend a lot more
    > time talking about wood.
    >
    > Also - Who are your students? Most will not go on to be master carpenters.
    > Some just want to learn enough to put up shelves in the garage. Why waste
    > their time learning the in's and out's of all the router bits?
    >
    > The other side is - Who are your instructors? As the quality of a tool goes
    > up the number of quality instructors goes down. There is a lot of "bad" C++
    > being taught out there. A simpler tool might make it easier for the average
    > TA to cope.
    >
    > But it is an old story - it's merely Java's turn to be the latest college
    > fad.
    >
    > >
    > > I doubt it though, that C/C++
    > >will continue to be the choice for writing applications for Windows. VB.NET,
    > >C# and Java are slowly but surely going to be the choice for writing stuff
    > >like that.
    > >

    >
    > One of the common myths is that C/C++ is currently the first choice for writing
    > Windows Applications. Most Windows programs are written in VB and have been
    > for quite a while. The exception being critical mission, games, and commercial
    > applications. I don't see the later changing too dramatically in the near
    > future.


  3. #18
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?

    Well, this is a complicated one...
    To be honest (and to praise myself ;-)), I have to say that the first
    programming language I've learned was Pascal and the second one was C++, and
    I think I've learned these ones well. Pascal (although not used in
    commercial, real-world programming situations) is IMO the best language for
    highschool students, since it allows you to focus on actual algorithms and
    basic programming techniques, the must-knows of a begginer. When it comes to
    preparing people for the "real" programming, I think C++, Java and C# should
    be studied in 50%, 25% and 25% proportions each. Why is that? Well, besides
    me being a C++ fanatic, I think that C# and Java take you away from some of
    the problems you inherently face when working on a project and C++ is more
    appropriate, more flexible for various constructs (yes, operator
    overloading, generic programming, custom memory allocators and so on...).
    Java and C# must be studied because, after all, more than 90% of the
    programmers work at a higher level of abstraction that C++ addresses (how do
    you feel about remoting in C++? or interoperability? platform and version
    independence? should I go on?).
    To get back to the original subject: C++ is more appropriate for systems you
    need to control very strictly (operating systems, real-time thingies), and
    it should be used accordingly. Java, C# and other higher-level
    languages/platforms are good for rapid development, for large-scale systems.
    One more thing and I'm through: I think it's more expensive to prepare well
    a C++ programmer that a C#/Java programmer.
    Best regards,
    Ovidiu Platon.
    "Danny Kalev" <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote in message
    news:3CEED90B.D04000A@inter.net.il...
    > In general, I think that the language of choice used in academia is very
    > much irrelevant. In fact, I'm surprised that they have been using C++ to
    > begin with. After all, real world programming and academic exercises
    > (linked lists for the millionth time anybody?) are very different. For
    > example, a student will be asked to implement a linked list from scratch
    > whereas a real programmer (hopefully) will use STL instead. Let's
    > remember that 10 years ago, the language of choice was Ada or Pascal but
    > real world programmers never used these languages anywhere else, either
    > so the belief that since students are now learning Java instead of C++
    > doesn't say anything about their future programming language in the real
    > world. Most likely, they won't be the ones who decide which language to
    > use anyway; they'll simply have to use the language that their team or
    > company uses, whether it's C++, Visual Basic or Fortran.
    > As an aside, I remember that when one of the colleges announced that
    > they were switching to Java (they must have assumed it would make them
    > look for hip'n'cool), one of the talkbacks said: "I hope they will
    > extend the amount of time for the exam" hinting at the inherent slowness
    > of Java...
    > Finally, the myth that Java is small and simple may been true during the
    > days of JDK 1.0. Today, Java is a real monster. It has funky features
    > such as weak and strong references, assertions (yay! after 20 years of
    > service in C someone at Sun decided it was time Java had asserts too!),
    > a new I/O library that supersedes the traditional library (again,
    > they've just discovered the wonders of asynchronous I/O) and many many
    > other changes and extensions. Sadly, they don't have templates yet so
    > you still see heinous MFC-style containers such as FloatBuffer,
    > ByteBuffer, LongBuffer and so on and so forth, instead of using a single
    > generic container class. Why not go straight to C++ then and avoid the
    > learning curve of Java designers in the first place?
    >
    > Danny
    >
    > ralph wrote:
    > >
    > > "blackspy" <user@host.org> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >Java is not what's at the core of XP or any other OS, that's for sure.

    However,
    > > >I think you may be thinking of the recent announcements from many

    university's
    > > >that will no longer be using c++ to teach thier programming classes,

    but
    > > >are switching to Java, this is true. Java allows you to focus more on

    the
    > > >specifics of what you're trying to learn about while studying

    programming,
    > > >and not having to worry so much about language.
    > > > ...

    > > snip
    > >
    > > There has always been a problem with using C/C++ as a "first language".

    C++
    > > only came in wide use relatively recently because of it popularity and

    the
    > > general decline of other languages. By default - not by unanimous choice
    > > - you could say.
    > >
    > > It has always been a difficult dilemma for academia - chose a

    full-featured
    > > language and lose the concepts in the details or pick limited features

    and
    > > teach a couple of basic concepts avoiding the details. The "history" of

    seeking
    > > the ultimate "teaching language" is rather interesting in itself - some

    of
    > > its products have been BASIC, Pascal, ModulaII, etc. An old story - the

    search
    > > for that elusive Magic Bullet.
    > >
    > > Java is a useful alternative especially when used with a simpler O/S

    like
    > > Unix. But, it will present the same problems and suffer the same fate as
    > > its academic predecessors - for after all - a "subset" is only a

    "subset".
    > >
    > > It is analogous to the question - How do you teach someone to be a

    carpenter?
    > > Do you start off in a major wood shop with orbital, flat, oscillating

    sanders,
    > > and routers and datto, milling machines, lathes, bench grinder, dermel

    tools,
    > > carving, auto nail drivers, .... or do you give them a hammer, saw, and

    some
    > > chisels?
    > >
    > > Do you spend your time showing them how not to cut off their fingers, or
    > > do you show them how to assemble wood. Admittedly the results with the

    latter
    > > is often bulky and generally un-sightly - still you get to spend a lot

    more
    > > time talking about wood.
    > >
    > > Also - Who are your students? Most will not go on to be master

    carpenters.
    > > Some just want to learn enough to put up shelves in the garage. Why

    waste
    > > their time learning the in's and out's of all the router bits?
    > >
    > > The other side is - Who are your instructors? As the quality of a tool

    goes
    > > up the number of quality instructors goes down. There is a lot of "bad"

    C++
    > > being taught out there. A simpler tool might make it easier for the

    average
    > > TA to cope.
    > >
    > > But it is an old story - it's merely Java's turn to be the latest

    college
    > > fad.
    > >
    > > >
    > > > I doubt it though, that C/C++
    > > >will continue to be the choice for writing applications for Windows.

    VB.NET,
    > > >C# and Java are slowly but surely going to be the choice for writing

    stuff
    > > >like that.
    > > >

    > >
    > > One of the common myths is that C/C++ is currently the first choice for

    writing
    > > Windows Applications. Most Windows programs are written in VB and have

    been
    > > for quite a while. The exception being critical mission, games, and

    commercial
    > > applications. I don't see the later changing too dramatically in the

    near
    > > future.




  4. #19
    ralph Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >Well, this is a complicated one...
    >To be honest (and to praise myself ;-)), I have to say that the first
    >programming language I've learned was Pascal and the second one was C++,

    and
    >I think I've learned these ones well. Pascal (although not used in
    >commercial, real-world programming situations) is IMO the best language

    for
    >highschool students, since it allows you to focus on actual algorithms and
    >basic programming techniques, the must-knows of a begginer. When it comes

    to
    >preparing people for the "real" programming, I think C++, Java and C# should
    >be studied in 50%, 25% and 25% proportions each. Why is that? Well, besides
    >me being a C++ fanatic, I think that C# and Java take you away from some

    of
    >the problems you inherently face when working on a project and C++ is more
    >appropriate, more flexible for various constructs (yes, operator
    >overloading, generic programming, custom memory allocators and so on...).
    >Java and C# must be studied because, after all, more than 90% of the
    >programmers work at a higher level of abstraction that C++ addresses (how

    do
    >you feel about remoting in C++? or interoperability? platform and version
    >independence? should I go on?).
    >To get back to the original subject: C++ is more appropriate for systems

    you
    >need to control very strictly (operating systems, real-time thingies), and
    >it should be used accordingly. Java, C# and other higher-level
    >languages/platforms are good for rapid development, for large-scale systems.
    >One more thing and I'm through: I think it's more expensive to prepare well
    >a C++ programmer that a C#/Java programmer.
    >Best regards,
    >Ovidiu Platon.


    The idea of using/learning multiple languages is a good point. There is definitely
    a synergy in learning two languages.

    I started out writing C and using the Shell. Thought I was pretty 'hot' too.
    But every excursion into using another language, no matter how brief or superficial,
    brought back some new insights. Ha, even those I looked down on or considered
    "beneath" me. (I won't tell you what I learned from Cobol since among my
    associates I disavow any knowledge of that particular Acronym.)

    IMHO: The best "first language" is Turtle Logo, but it seems to have disappeared.


  5. #20
    David Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    I believe that Java is used as an introductory programming language in college
    and high school environments. The goal is to teach object oriented programming
    without having to deal with some of the basic but more difficult C++ concepts
    such as pointers. Java may be used as a stepping stone for students who
    may go on to learn C++ rather than as the stopping place. Learning Java
    as a first programming language does not preclude developing other skills.
    In particular, after learning Java it is very easy to transition to C#.


    Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    >In general, I think that the language of choice used in academia is very
    >much irrelevant. In fact, I'm surprised that they have been using C++ to
    >begin with. After all, real world programming and academic exercises
    >(linked lists for the millionth time anybody?) are very different. For
    >example, a student will be asked to implement a linked list from scratch
    >whereas a real programmer (hopefully) will use STL instead. Let's
    >remember that 10 years ago, the language of choice was Ada or Pascal but
    >real world programmers never used these languages anywhere else, either
    >so the belief that since students are now learning Java instead of C++
    >doesn't say anything about their future programming language in the real
    >world. Most likely, they won't be the ones who decide which language to
    >use anyway; they'll simply have to use the language that their team or
    >company uses, whether it's C++, Visual Basic or Fortran.
    >As an aside, I remember that when one of the colleges announced that
    >they were switching to Java (they must have assumed it would make them
    >look for hip'n'cool), one of the talkbacks said: "I hope they will
    >extend the amount of time for the exam" hinting at the inherent slowness
    >of Java...
    >Finally, the myth that Java is small and simple may been true during the
    >days of JDK 1.0. Today, Java is a real monster. It has funky features
    >such as weak and strong references, assertions (yay! after 20 years of
    >service in C someone at Sun decided it was time Java had asserts too!),
    >a new I/O library that supersedes the traditional library (again,
    >they've just discovered the wonders of asynchronous I/O) and many many
    >other changes and extensions. Sadly, they don't have templates yet so
    >you still see heinous MFC-style containers such as FloatBuffer,
    >ByteBuffer, LongBuffer and so on and so forth, instead of using a single
    >generic container class. Why not go straight to C++ then and avoid the
    >learning curve of Java designers in the first place?
    >
    >Danny
    >
    >ralph wrote:
    >>
    >> "blackspy" <user@host.org> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >Java is not what's at the core of XP or any other OS, that's for sure.

    However,
    >> >I think you may be thinking of the recent announcements from many university's
    >> >that will no longer be using c++ to teach thier programming classes,

    but
    >> >are switching to Java, this is true. Java allows you to focus more on

    the
    >> >specifics of what you're trying to learn about while studying programming,
    >> >and not having to worry so much about language.
    >> > ...

    >> snip
    >>
    >> There has always been a problem with using C/C++ as a "first language".

    C++
    >> only came in wide use relatively recently because of it popularity and

    the
    >> general decline of other languages. By default - not by unanimous choice
    >> - you could say.
    >>
    >> It has always been a difficult dilemma for academia - chose a full-featured
    >> language and lose the concepts in the details or pick limited features

    and
    >> teach a couple of basic concepts avoiding the details. The "history" of

    seeking
    >> the ultimate "teaching language" is rather interesting in itself - some

    of
    >> its products have been BASIC, Pascal, ModulaII, etc. An old story - the

    search
    >> for that elusive Magic Bullet.
    >>
    >> Java is a useful alternative especially when used with a simpler O/S like
    >> Unix. But, it will present the same problems and suffer the same fate

    as
    >> its academic predecessors - for after all - a "subset" is only a "subset".
    >>
    >> It is analogous to the question - How do you teach someone to be a carpenter?
    >> Do you start off in a major wood shop with orbital, flat, oscillating

    sanders,
    >> and routers and datto, milling machines, lathes, bench grinder, dermel

    tools,
    >> carving, auto nail drivers, .... or do you give them a hammer, saw, and

    some
    >> chisels?
    >>
    >> Do you spend your time showing them how not to cut off their fingers,

    or
    >> do you show them how to assemble wood. Admittedly the results with the

    latter
    >> is often bulky and generally un-sightly - still you get to spend a lot

    more
    >> time talking about wood.
    >>
    >> Also - Who are your students? Most will not go on to be master carpenters.
    >> Some just want to learn enough to put up shelves in the garage. Why waste
    >> their time learning the in's and out's of all the router bits?
    >>
    >> The other side is - Who are your instructors? As the quality of a tool

    goes
    >> up the number of quality instructors goes down. There is a lot of "bad"

    C++
    >> being taught out there. A simpler tool might make it easier for the average
    >> TA to cope.
    >>
    >> But it is an old story - it's merely Java's turn to be the latest college
    >> fad.
    >>
    >> >
    >> > I doubt it though, that C/C++
    >> >will continue to be the choice for writing applications for Windows.

    VB.NET,
    >> >C# and Java are slowly but surely going to be the choice for writing

    stuff
    >> >like that.
    >> >

    >>
    >> One of the common myths is that C/C++ is currently the first choice for

    writing
    >> Windows Applications. Most Windows programs are written in VB and have

    been
    >> for quite a while. The exception being critical mission, games, and commercial
    >> applications. I don't see the later changing too dramatically in the near
    >> future.



  6. #21
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?

    > Learning Java as a first programming language does not preclude developing
    other skills.
    One observation about that: many of my friends learned Java first and after
    that C++. It usually takes about 6 months and even 1 year to get memory
    allocation and especially deallocation to work right in C++. Java does not
    preclude developing other programming skills but this type of language
    develops a special way of thinking ("don't bother with the details") which
    slows down transitions to other programming styles.
    Best regards,
    Ovidiu Platon.



  7. #22
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?



    Ovidiu Platon wrote:
    >
    > > Learning Java as a first programming language does not preclude developing

    > other skills.
    > One observation about that: many of my friends learned Java first and after
    > that C++. It usually takes about 6 months and even 1 year to get memory
    > allocation and especially deallocation to work right in C++.

    Depending on what you mean by "memory allocation and deallocation", this
    statement may be correct or not. Quality production code nowadays uses
    STL containers and algorithms and third-party smart pointer classes
    rather than bare pointers and delete statements all over the place.
    Remember also that unlike most other OO languages, C++ does give you a
    choice: use static or automatic storage instead of allocating objects on
    the free store and thus avoid the complications of manual memory
    management (that is, if you don't use STL).
    Interestingly enough, about %80 of the college and school assignments
    posted on this forum have to do with linked lists. If colleges and
    schools are so eager to hide the complexities of pointers from rookies,
    why don't they instruct their students to use STL? Because pointers and
    memory management in general is a fundamental feature of every serious
    programming language, including Java. While you don't have to deallocate
    every Java object explicitly, you're still advised to assign it to null
    when it isn't needed any longer. Frankly, I see no difference between
    obj=null;
    and
    delete obj;

    More importantly, even pure academic languages such as Pascal have
    pointers, with purpose. To me, the choice of Java seems like window
    dressing more than anything else.


    Java does not
    > preclude developing other programming skills but this type of language
    > develops a special way of thinking ("don't bother with the details") which
    > slows down transitions to other programming styles.


    perhaps you don't have to bother about the details that matter in C++ in
    Java, but there are other details to bother about: weak vs. strong
    references, exceptions all over the place, nullifying unused objects to
    help out the GC and so on. The myths about Java's simplicity were true
    during the days of JDK 1.0. Things have changed quite a bit since then
    and they will surely keep changing during the coming years.

    Danny

  8. #23
    nlongo Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    I had the fortunate advantage that my first two years of school were in C++.
    Then the school shifted to Java. This has it's advantages for teachers
    as you noted. Now being in the industry and receiving people who work for
    me that have only experience in java(or languages that are easier to teach)
    is demonstrating(in my opinion) to be a bad thing. Maybe because we do C++
    development and they are not ready for it. Ya, Java's sytax is similar but
    they miss out on a lot of the stuff C++ programers have to worry about.
    Yes I know, to bad we have to worry about things like cleaning up after our
    selves.

    I think the solution is a middle ground. Java(or something along those lines)
    should be used especially to start in but it should not be exclusive and
    only one class in C++ is not enough. Maybe I had good professors but I didn't
    find it difficult to learn C++ as my first language but I also didn't come
    from a school who uses TA. I had a teacher who wrote a lot of the GNU implementation
    of the standard library.

    Just my thoughts...

  9. #24
    Dennis Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    "James" <cplus.@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    >And what about C? Built using what? Assembly Language. Which is itself

    built
    >from native machine code.
    >
    >Swings and roundabouts.... :-)


    Actually, I think that C and C++ as a mature language would have the compiler
    built using a previous C/C++ compiler. Certain very low level stuff may be
    in assembler but that should be limited. And after all, that's what the asm
    keyword is for.

    Depends on your definition of 'built'. If we're talking of all the support
    applications, the compiler is the major part. For java, there would be the
    compiler and the JVM.

    regards,

    Dennis

  10. #25
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?



    Dennis wrote:
    >
    > "James" <cplus.@127.0.0.1> wrote:
    >
    > >And what about C? Built using what? Assembly Language. Which is itself

    > built
    > >from native machine code.
    > >
    > >Swings and roundabouts.... :-)

    >
    > Actually, I think that C and C++ as a mature language would have the compiler
    > built using a previous C/C++ compiler. Certain very low level stuff may be
    > in assembler but that should be limited. And after all, that's what the asm
    > keyword is for.


    Actually, I had intended to say this but for some reason it slipped from
    my mind. Most compilers nowadays aren't written in assembly; they are
    written in C or C++. Furthermore, several C++ programmers generate C
    code rather than assembly. The intermediate C code is then translated
    into native assembly of course but still.

    Danny

  11. #26
    Dennis Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    "ralph" <nt_consulting32@hotmail.com> wrote:
    <snip...>

    >IMHO: The best "first language" is Turtle Logo, but it seems to have disappeared.


    http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/logo-foundation/
    Seems to be still available here.

  12. #27
    ralph Guest

    Re: Is XP built with C++ or JAVA?


    "Dennis" <Dennis.Lim@motorola.com> wrote:
    >
    >"ralph" <nt_consulting32@hotmail.com> wrote:
    ><snip...>
    >
    >>IMHO: The best "first language" is Turtle Logo, but it seems to have disappeared.

    >
    >http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/logo-foundation/
    >Seems to be still available here.


    Thanks for the link. Gave me an excuse to go and peek 'n poke around a bit.

    As for my remark about its "disappearing" I didn't mean it had literally
    left the planet, only that it doesn't seem to be as prevalent or as popular
    as it once was in Elementary Schools (at least in my limited experience and
    locations). However, this is probably to be expected - a large blank screen
    with a lonely, silent green turtle (or bland triangle) in the middle, would
    likely fair poorly when compared to other musical, multi-media, fast-paced,
    'educational' software. Ghod forbid we would ask a child to stop clicking
    and start thinking. <g>

    I think Turtle Logo is often over-looked as a 'first' programming tool for
    somebody of any age. I have seen people as late as college and long past,
    play around with it and come away with a better feel for basic programming
    concepts.

    I have often recommended it to 'lay-programmers' (teachers, secretaries,
    stay-at-homes, etc.) as a good place to start - usually under the guise of
    using it to help their kids get started. The most common result has been
    - "You know I started piddling around with that silly thing and ...".

    I was somewhat dismayed to discover it is still a dialectal mess. You would
    think that after 20 years somebody could have agreed on something as simple
    as a syntax for "SetColor". Makes one appreciate the ANSI/ISO. [As hard as
    it is for me to say anything kind about that reigning bunch of discontented
    self-absorbed highbrows, standards can be a good thing. <g>]

    So much for Languages designed by vendors and committees.

    -ralph


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