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Thread: C++ or C#

  1. #1
    Ken Guest

    C++ or C#


    There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    articles that compares the two?

    Thanks for any help.
    Ken

  2. #2
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#

    The was a racy thread on this very topic a few weeks ago on this forum.
    Try to find it. I'm sure you'll find compelling reasons to trash C#
    right away.
    More seriously, the .Net framework, and C# in particular, is still very
    buggy and half-baked. It's not going to change within weeks or months;
    it's a matter of years. If your office is willing to debug this language
    for MS and learn the hard way what it still lacks -- then vote aye:)

    Danny

    Ken wrote:
    >
    > There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    > Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    > that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    > articles that compares the two?
    >
    > Thanks for any help.
    > Ken


  3. #3
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    >The was a racy thread on this very topic a few weeks ago on this forum.
    >Try to find it. I'm sure you'll find compelling reasons to trash C#
    >right away.
    >More seriously, the .Net framework, and C# in particular, is still very
    >buggy and half-baked. It's not going to change within weeks or months;
    >it's a matter of years. If your office is willing to debug this language
    >for MS and learn the hard way what it still lacks -- then vote aye:)
    >
    >Danny
    >
    >Ken wrote:
    >>
    >> There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >> Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the

    powers
    >> that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >> articles that compares the two?
    >>
    >> Thanks for any help.
    >> Ken


    Oh Danny boy. I have been hanging around here for some time now and each
    time a question like this comes up you seem to be able to come up with all
    of the bad things in each language that people ask about. Having done C++
    for 6 years now, I have pretty much accepted the fact that C++ is not going
    to have the market share it has had in the past. I will miss C++ but I don't
    want to go the way of the dinosaur. If you wish to keep giving advice to
    beginners about which language to learn and what is going to be most beneficial
    in the future, remember C++ will most likely end up like COBOL. Somebody
    will need to fix it. Just look at the job postings:

    C++ == maintenance

    C# and Java == new development

    I don't know about you but the "new, cool" stuff is why I got in this business.


  4. #4
    ralph Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >
    >There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    >that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >articles that compares the two?
    >
    >Thanks for any help.
    >Ken


    IMHO: [20+ years tilting with windmills]

    Depending on what your shop is doing, what resources are available, and where
    they see themselves 5 or 6 years down the road? C# may make sense. But it
    doesn't really matter. If there is a "push" then someone is seeking the "magic
    bullet" - faster development times, more productive, more [place buzz word
    here]... Whether it is a "magic bullet" or not... logic and bosses are often
    strangers and like I said it doesn't matter - substance is only around 10%
    - perception is everything else.

    By complaining you will only make yourself the "odd-man-out". If you aren't
    careful you will be doing the maintenance while the others go on.

    Also, if you can't come up with several excellent reasons why YOUR shop should
    stick with C++, then no one else's pat answers will help. You know more about
    your problem domain than anyone.

    Unless you have enough clout to dictate direction (which isn't likely or
    we wouldn't be having this conversation <g>) save your breath and energy
    and go with the flow. If it becomes unbearable or you are unable to carve
    out a niche for yourself - then dust off the ole' resume or buy a .NET book.

    -ralph


  5. #5
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    Ted wrote:
    >
    > Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    > >The was a racy thread on this very topic a few weeks ago on this forum.
    > >Try to find it. I'm sure you'll find compelling reasons to trash C#
    > >right away.
    > >More seriously, the .Net framework, and C# in particular, is still very
    > >buggy and half-baked. It's not going to change within weeks or months;
    > >it's a matter of years. If your office is willing to debug this language
    > >for MS and learn the hard way what it still lacks -- then vote aye:)
    > >
    > >Danny
    > >
    > >Ken wrote:
    > >>
    > >> There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    > >> Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the

    > powers
    > >> that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    > >> articles that compares the two?
    > >>
    > >> Thanks for any help.
    > >> Ken

    >
    > Oh Danny boy. I have been hanging around here for some time now and each
    > time a question like this comes up you seem to be able to come up with all
    > of the bad things in each language that people ask about. Having done C++
    > for 6 years now, I have pretty much accepted the fact that C++ is not going
    > to have the market share it has had in the past. I will miss C++ but I don't
    > want to go the way of the dinosaur. If you wish to keep giving advice to
    > beginners about which language to learn and what is going to be most beneficial
    > in the future, remember C++ will most likely end up like COBOL. Somebody
    > will need to fix it. Just look at the job postings:
    >
    > C++ == maintenance


    I don't know where exactly you have been working in the past six years,
    but I suggest, again, that you read the interview with Herb Sutter. He
    surely knows why C++ is here to stay.
    >
    > C# and Java == new development


    Says who? What exactly is new development anyway? rewriting from scratch
    every Java app with every new JDK that hits the street since all the
    former APIs have been changed completely? And let's not even mention
    C#... The problem with all this wonderful new development stuff is that
    it becomes useless within months; if the code isn't needed anymore,
    we're saved. But when it is, we, real C++ developers, have to
    re-implement it in C++. Just look at how many "I started with Java and
    now I'm beginning my first steps in C++" questions are posted here.
    >
    > I don't know about you but the "new, cool" stuff is why I got in this business.


    I got into the business because I've always thought that programming is
    something that should be done by serious programmers, with serious
    programming languages. Not that I'm implying that Java isn't. Cool and
    new stuff withers much faster than it seems. Who uses the miraculous AWT
    these days? And what about the revolutionary RMI? Where's DHTML? the
    list is long. Besides, it seems like your programming experience is
    confined to a specific platform (lemme guess...Windows?) and a specific
    application domain. There's more to programming than popup menus and
    splash screens, you know...

    Danny

  6. #6
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "ralph" <nt_consulting32@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >>Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    >>that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >>articles that compares the two?
    >>
    >>Thanks for any help.
    >>Ken

    >
    >IMHO: [20+ years tilting with windmills]
    >
    >Depending on what your shop is doing, what resources are available, and

    where
    >they see themselves 5 or 6 years down the road? C# may make sense. But it
    >doesn't really matter. If there is a "push" then someone is seeking the

    "magic
    >bullet" - faster development times, more productive, more [place buzz word
    >here]... Whether it is a "magic bullet" or not... logic and bosses are often
    >strangers and like I said it doesn't matter - substance is only around 10%
    >- perception is everything else.
    >
    >By complaining you will only make yourself the "odd-man-out". If you aren't
    >careful you will be doing the maintenance while the others go on.
    >
    >Also, if you can't come up with several excellent reasons why YOUR shop

    should
    >stick with C++, then no one else's pat answers will help. You know more

    about
    >your problem domain than anyone.
    >
    >Unless you have enough clout to dictate direction (which isn't likely or
    >we wouldn't be having this conversation <g>) save your breath and energy
    >and go with the flow. If it becomes unbearable or you are unable to carve
    >out a niche for yourself - then dust off the ole' resume or buy a .NET book.
    >
    >-ralph
    >


    A quote from Don Box @ devcon:
    "Technology is decided on the golf course".

    The big wigs make the decision. I agree with Ralph. I know from experience,
    9 times out of 10 you can't win.


  7. #7
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    >I don't know where exactly you have been working in the past six years,
    >but I suggest, again, that you read the interview with Herb Sutter. He
    >surely knows why C++ is here to stay.


    And I'm sure Stan Lippman and Don Box(who are now at MS) know that C++ is
    here to stay also. I found it strange that Lippman went to MS after being
    mainly a UNIX guru. Hmmm, makes you wonder. I don't think that I said C++
    was dead on any platform. MS hired Lippman to make sure that the VC++ community
    isn't forgotten.
    >>
    >> C# and Java == new development

    >Says who?


    Every job search engine on the internet.

    >What exactly is new development anyway?


    You see, as a C++ developer I said the same thing. For the past 2 years
    it has been enhancements and bug fixes for me. Not exactly my idea of exciting.

    >And let's not even mention C#...


    Why not mention C#? I expect that you have written many apps already in
    C# to be able to critique it?


    >The problem with all this wonderful new development stuff is that
    >it becomes useless within months; if the code isn't needed anymore,
    >we're saved. But when it is, we, real C++ developers, have to
    >re-implement it in C++.


    Haven't seen this in 6 years. By the way there was this "wonderful new development"
    project that I took part in that kept me working for the past 6 years. It
    was a new technology called COM, you may have heard of it. And I am curious
    as to what languages you have had to re-write from?

    >Just look at how many "I started with Java and
    >now I'm beginning my first steps in C++" questions are posted here.


    And now these people will be working at McDonalds like many COBOL programmers
    in the future. Face it Danny the market isn't there for C++ any more. It
    is not what it was. By the way look at some of the other newsgroups out
    there. Look at the numbers of questions about Java and C#( and now even
    VB.NET) that have nothing to do with moving to C++.

    >I got into the business because I've always thought that programming is
    >something that should be done by serious programmers, with serious
    >programming languages.


    Be serious, the main reason is to pay the bills and I hated doing construction.
    It hurt my back.


    >Cool and new stuff withers much faster than it seems. Who uses the >miraculous

    AWT
    >these days?


    You can have your pick of technologies that have failed but what of the ones
    that have succeeded like COM?

    >Besides, it seems like your programming experience is
    >confined to a specific platform (lemme guess...Windows?) and a specific
    >application domain. There's more to programming than popup menus and
    >splash screens, you know...


    You are correct, I am no UNIX (or what you would call a hardcore serious
    programmer who use serious programming languages) guru. I do VC++(yes managed
    C++) and C# on windows. It's not GCC but it'll do and I have more hair than
    most UNIX C++ devs. I hated UNIX in school and still despise it to this day.
    The tools are horrible. As for popups and splash screens, haven't done
    em. I am stricly "middle tier man".














  8. #8
    Ken Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    I must say, I agree with Danny. I've been using C++ for over 7 years now
    and all I've been doing nothing but new development in C++. New development
    as in from scratch, like creating a multithread OO server for a client of
    mine. Of course it was written in C++ and only C++. I just spent a year
    and a half converting a server side application that was written in Java
    to C++ with an OO design and that was written from scratch.

    I've seen development shops switch from one toy language to another trying
    to get the same Application to work properly. And yet, I never had a problem
    developing application with a real language like C++. Programming either
    being a GUI or server side applications.

    "remember C++ will most likely end up like COBOL." I disagree with an attitude.
    he he he. If you look at the history of languages, COBOL died because it
    could not evolve. This is why all of the toy languages are written with
    C++ not the other way around. So logically how can a language die if it
    supports all know languages that you play with? How many other toy languages
    tried and failed flat on their face. Let me think, Delpi, Powerbuilder,
    Smalltalk, [insert toy language here]. Don稚 get me wrong toy languages
    aren稚 bad is that the right tool needs to be applied. This is way STL has
    become a C++ standard.

    Later
    Ken

    Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    >
    >
    >Ted wrote:
    >>
    >> Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    >> >The was a racy thread on this very topic a few weeks ago on this forum.
    >> >Try to find it. I'm sure you'll find compelling reasons to trash C#
    >> >right away.
    >> >More seriously, the .Net framework, and C# in particular, is still very
    >> >buggy and half-baked. It's not going to change within weeks or months;
    >> >it's a matter of years. If your office is willing to debug this language
    >> >for MS and learn the hard way what it still lacks -- then vote aye:)
    >> >
    >> >Danny
    >> >
    >> >Ken wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I

    know,
    >> >> Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the

    >> powers
    >> >> that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with

    some
    >> >> articles that compares the two?
    >> >>
    >> >> Thanks for any help.
    >> >> Ken

    >>
    >> Oh Danny boy. I have been hanging around here for some time now and each
    >> time a question like this comes up you seem to be able to come up with

    all
    >> of the bad things in each language that people ask about. Having done

    C++
    >> for 6 years now, I have pretty much accepted the fact that C++ is not

    going
    >> to have the market share it has had in the past. I will miss C++ but

    I don't
    >> want to go the way of the dinosaur. If you wish to keep giving advice

    to
    >> beginners about which language to learn and what is going to be most beneficial
    >> in the future, remember C++ will most likely end up like COBOL. Somebody
    >> will need to fix it. Just look at the job postings:
    >>
    >> C++ == maintenance

    >
    >I don't know where exactly you have been working in the past six years,
    >but I suggest, again, that you read the interview with Herb Sutter. He
    >surely knows why C++ is here to stay.
    >>
    >> C# and Java == new development

    >
    >Says who? What exactly is new development anyway? rewriting from scratch
    >every Java app with every new JDK that hits the street since all the
    >former APIs have been changed completely? And let's not even mention
    >C#... The problem with all this wonderful new development stuff is that
    >it becomes useless within months; if the code isn't needed anymore,
    >we're saved. But when it is, we, real C++ developers, have to
    >re-implement it in C++. Just look at how many "I started with Java and
    >now I'm beginning my first steps in C++" questions are posted here.
    >>
    >> I don't know about you but the "new, cool" stuff is why I got in this

    business.
    >
    >I got into the business because I've always thought that programming is
    >something that should be done by serious programmers, with serious
    >programming languages. Not that I'm implying that Java isn't. Cool and
    >new stuff withers much faster than it seems. Who uses the miraculous AWT
    >these days? And what about the revolutionary RMI? Where's DHTML? the
    >list is long. Besides, it seems like your programming experience is
    >confined to a specific platform (lemme guess...Windows?) and a specific
    >application domain. There's more to programming than popup menus and
    >splash screens, you know...
    >
    >Danny



  9. #9
    Ken Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    The only reason Managers like this stuff is because it promises to save money
    not to make anything better or faster. With that in mind, managers think
    that they can hire cheaper programmers or should I say, application developers,
    thus saving more money. This money saving only goes to the manager as a
    bonus at the end of the year so he can keep his Lexus. So if you want to
    support these idiots then by all mean go ahead.

    Later
    Ken

    "Ted" <none@none.com> wrote:
    >
    >"ralph" <nt_consulting32@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>"Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >>>Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the

    powers
    >>>that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >>>articles that compares the two?
    >>>
    >>>Thanks for any help.
    >>>Ken

    >>
    >>IMHO: [20+ years tilting with windmills]
    >>
    >>Depending on what your shop is doing, what resources are available, and

    >where
    >>they see themselves 5 or 6 years down the road? C# may make sense. But

    it
    >>doesn't really matter. If there is a "push" then someone is seeking the

    >"magic
    >>bullet" - faster development times, more productive, more [place buzz word
    >>here]... Whether it is a "magic bullet" or not... logic and bosses are

    often
    >>strangers and like I said it doesn't matter - substance is only around

    10%
    >>- perception is everything else.
    >>
    >>By complaining you will only make yourself the "odd-man-out". If you aren't
    >>careful you will be doing the maintenance while the others go on.
    >>
    >>Also, if you can't come up with several excellent reasons why YOUR shop

    >should
    >>stick with C++, then no one else's pat answers will help. You know more

    >about
    >>your problem domain than anyone.
    >>
    >>Unless you have enough clout to dictate direction (which isn't likely or
    >>we wouldn't be having this conversation <g>) save your breath and energy
    >>and go with the flow. If it becomes unbearable or you are unable to carve
    >>out a niche for yourself - then dust off the ole' resume or buy a .NET

    book.
    >>
    >>-ralph
    >>

    >
    >A quote from Don Box @ devcon:
    >"Technology is decided on the golf course".
    >
    >The big wigs make the decision. I agree with Ralph. I know from experience,
    >9 times out of 10 you can't win.
    >



  10. #10
    Floyd Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >
    >There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    >that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >articles that compares the two?
    >
    >Thanks for any help.
    >Ken


    There aren't such args. You can't compare diferent languages, see Bjarne
    Stroustrup's answer for who those like to compare languages...

    If your office switches for C# , what you gonna do? get fired and try get
    other job? Come on...

    Face it , time doesn't stop...
    moreover did you try write an web service or a multi-thread application with
    pure c++?

    New languages and libraries came to fill these blank spaces...

    and btw C# isn't so hard to learn. :)

    regards
    floyd.


  11. #11
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >
    >The only reason Managers like this stuff is because it promises to save

    money
    >not to make anything better or faster. With that in mind, managers think
    >that they can hire cheaper programmers or should I say, application developers,
    >thus saving more money. This money saving only goes to the manager as a
    >bonus at the end of the year so he can keep his Lexus. So if you want to
    >support these idiots then by all mean go ahead.
    >
    >Later
    >Ken



    Exactly. I couldn't agree more. But, if you want to keep your job... well,
    when in Rome. By the way, these idiots pay us. They take our input but
    business needs will prevail especially in this day.

  12. #12
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    >I must say, I agree with Danny.


    I never said I didn't agree with Danny. The point is, there are other languages
    out there. I used to have that "VB sucks" mentality but as I have been in
    this business for some time I have seen that business needs mean more to
    company than "real programmers and real languages". Show me the money!!


    >I've been using C++ for over 7 years now
    >and all I've been doing nothing but new development in C++. New development
    >as in from scratch, like creating a multithread OO server for a client of
    >mine. Of course it was written in C++ and only C++.


    Your point? Been doing threading on a daily basis for years. I don't get
    it.

    >I just spent a year
    >and a half converting a server side application that was written in Java
    >to C++ with an OO design and that was written from scratch.


    This is not new. This is refactoring just in another language. Not my idea
    of fun.


    >I've seen development shops switch from one toy language to another trying
    >to get the same Application to work properly. And yet, I never had a problem
    >developing application with a real language like C++. Programming either
    >being a GUI or server side applications.


    And Dodge built the Viper. It's new, cool and does the same thing as that
    Pinto I drove in high school did. It does the same job, I just look cooler
    in it and I get there faster. I know, it cost more, so what.


    >"remember C++ will most likely end up like COBOL." I disagree with an attitude.
    > he he he. If you look at the history of languages, COBOL died because

    it
    >could not evolve. This is why all of the toy languages are written with
    >C++ not the other way around. So logically how can a language die if it
    >supports all know languages that you play with?


    Again, I didn't say it died or will. And neither has COBOL. COBOL is alive
    and well in the midwest USA. Unfortunately, it's all maintenance and those
    in the know are doing that work. Others are fending for their lives worrying
    about layoffs. As long as C++ is around to write languages like C# and VB,
    hey I am happier for it. I know where my money will come from and what the
    demand is.

    >How many other toy languages
    >tried and failed flat on their face. Let me think, Delpi, Powerbuilder,
    >Smalltalk, [insert toy language here]. Don稚 get me wrong toy languages
    >aren稚 bad is that the right tool needs to be applied. This is way STL

    has
    >become a C++ standard.
    >


    STL became a standard because of "toy languages"?

  13. #13
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "Floyd" <fhamberg@mail.ru.> wrote:
    >
    >"Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >>Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    >>that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >>articles that compares the two?
    >>
    >>Thanks for any help.
    >>Ken

    >
    >There aren't such args. You can't compare diferent languages, see Bjarne
    >Stroustrup's answer for who those like to compare languages...
    >
    >If your office switches for C# , what you gonna do? get fired and try get
    >other job? Come on...
    >
    >Face it , time doesn't stop...
    >moreover did you try write an web service or a multi-thread application

    with
    >pure c++?
    >
    >New languages and libraries came to fill these blank spaces...
    >
    >and btw C# isn't so hard to learn. :)
    >
    >regards
    >floyd.
    >



  14. #14
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "Floyd" <fhamberg@mail.ru.> wrote:
    >
    >"Ken" <terryken@erols.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>There is currently a push in my office to switch from C++ to C#. I know,
    >>Iknow, I知 all against it too. But I need some hard fact to show the powers
    >>that be why we should not go with C#. Can someone please help with some
    >>articles that compares the two?
    >>
    >>Thanks for any help.
    >>Ken

    >
    >There aren't such args. You can't compare diferent languages, see Bjarne
    >Stroustrup's answer for who those like to compare languages...
    >
    >If your office switches for C# , what you gonna do? get fired and try get
    >other job? Come on...
    >
    >Face it , time doesn't stop...
    >moreover did you try write an web service or a multi-thread application

    with
    >pure c++?
    >
    >New languages and libraries came to fill these blank spaces...
    >
    >and btw C# isn't so hard to learn. :)
    >
    >regards
    >floyd.
    >



    oops. Agree 100%

  15. #15
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    Ted wrote:
    >
    > >I must say, I agree with Danny.

    >
    > I never said I didn't agree with Danny. The point is, there are other languages
    > out there. I used to have that "VB sucks" mentality but as I have been in
    > this business for some time I have seen that business needs mean more to
    > company than "real programmers and real languages". Show me the money!!
    >
    > >I've been using C++ for over 7 years now
    > >and all I've been doing nothing but new development in C++. New development
    > >as in from scratch, like creating a multithread OO server for a client of
    > >mine. Of course it was written in C++ and only C++.

    >
    > Your point? Been doing threading on a daily basis for years. I don't get
    > it.
    >
    > >I just spent a year
    > >and a half converting a server side application that was written in Java
    > >to C++ with an OO design and that was written from scratch.

    >
    > This is not new. This is refactoring just in another language. Not my idea
    > of fun.


    So your idea of fun is writing flashy apps that don't really cut it and
    that need to be rewritten in C++, as long as you write them in a cool
    language?

    Danny

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