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Thread: C++ or C#

  1. #16
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    >So your idea of fun is writing flashy apps that don't really cut it and
    >that need to be rewritten in C++, as long as you write them in a cool
    >language?


    Well, yeah. Sort of. I don't do the flashy thing though. Be honest how
    many apps have you completely re-written? Or is it as I have done -- "Hey
    we need this functionality and we think it can only be done in C++. Can you
    do it?" If you have re-written I am curious as to what languages they were
    written in at first. And as to why they were re-written.

  2. #17
    Remi Guest

    Re: C++ or C#

    Hey its true that some of the applications need to be rewritten in
    ++( some socket like stuff ) which i personally know!!!

    -Remi

    "Ted" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:3d090ae4$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > >So your idea of fun is writing flashy apps that don't really cut it and
    > >that need to be rewritten in C++, as long as you write them in a cool
    > >language?

    >
    > Well, yeah. Sort of. I don't do the flashy thing though. Be honest how
    > many apps have you completely re-written? Or is it as I have done -- "Hey
    > we need this functionality and we think it can only be done in C++. Can

    you
    > do it?" If you have re-written I am curious as to what languages they

    were
    > written in at first. And as to why they were re-written.




  3. #18
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    Ted wrote:
    >
    > >So your idea of fun is writing flashy apps that don't really cut it and
    > >that need to be rewritten in C++, as long as you write them in a cool
    > >language?

    >
    > Well, yeah. Sort of. I don't do the flashy thing though. Be honest how
    > many apps have you completely re-written? Or is it as I have done -- "Hey
    > we need this functionality and we think it can only be done in C++. Can you
    > do it?" If you have re-written I am curious as to what languages they were
    > written in at first. And as to why they were re-written.


    I'm not an objective source since when people need to rewrite *anything*
    that wasn't written in C++ they come to me. I guess that if for some
    reason they'd want to convert a C++ app to C#, Lisp or Snobol they'd
    call someone else... The funny thing is that I once took part in a
    project that attempted to port C++ code to Java. At that time (1997)
    Java was new and I guess I was -- not unlike you -- attracted to the
    "new and cool stuff":) A few months later, the enthusiasm had withered.
    We learned the hard way how immature Java was at that time. We used JDK
    1.0, which frankly was a disgrace. It didn't have reflection, binary
    data stream (we had to use the awful DataInputStream and
    DataOutputStream classes. They performed horribly and their interfaces
    were catastrophic, to put it mildly), non blocking I/O and many other
    fundamental features that are needed in every serious networking
    application. After a few weeks of hesitation we decided to switch to the
    opposite direction: converting the Java stuff we'd written back to C++!
    Fortunately, Visual C++ 5.0 had just been released, and it was the first
    VC++ compiler to support STL properly, as well as namespaces, bool and
    so on so our task as born-again C++ programmers looked rather exciting.
    Needless to say, we didn't need more than a few days to accomplish the
    task in C++. To be fair, Java has come a long way since then. I wouldn't
    call it a toy language today (although it still misses important
    features such as operator overloading, enum types, templates and
    ordinary functions). In addition, we were Java rookies so our lack of
    experience must have had its negative contribution. Still, Java at that
    time simply wasn't useful for anything but silly applets running in a
    Web browser (often causing it to crash). I've participate in several
    other projects in which Java, Ada and Pascal (Delphi) code were
    rewritten in C++. In most cases, the problem with the original code was
    performance. In the case of Ada it was lack of vendors' support (try to
    get a decent Ada compiler today for Linux and you'll see what I mean).
    BTW, the myth that development time in C++ is longer isn't true, from my
    experience. If yo u are using advanced programming techniques such as
    STL, Design Patterns and perhaps an in-house general purpose class
    library, your development time is reduced significantly.

    Finally, a not about C++ vs. COBOL. I don't think there's any similarity
    between the two languages. COBOL isn't and was never meant to be a
    general purpose programming language. It was designed for a very
    specific type of application that became useless with the advent of
    commercial databases. Who'd want to program his own database from
    scratch these days? Besides, can you imagine a Web browser, text
    processor or an OS kernel written in COBOL? And where on earth can you
    find a COBOL compiler for Linux, ARM and Palm? C++ is in a radically
    different position and will continue to be the most popular general
    purpose programming language in the foreseeable future.

    Danny

  4. #19
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    I know that I wasn't in this field in the early 90's but can you tell me what
    the feeling was about C++ 10-12 years ago?

  5. #20
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    "Remi" <ccpluspluses@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >Hey its true that some of the applications need to be rewritten in
    >++( some socket like stuff ) which i personally know!!!


    Why did it have to be re-written in C++? Other languages don't do sockets?
    And is that an application or maybe some module?

  6. #21
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    Ted wrote:
    >
    > I know that I wasn't in this field in the early 90's but can you tell me what
    > the feeling was about C++ 10-12 years ago?


    It was a feeling of sheer excitement and even a revolution. Until then,
    object-oriented programming had been considered a theoretical academic
    trifle that was considered unsuitable for anything serious. After all,
    Smalltalk had been around since 1972. It was the language the defined
    the term object-oriented and see where it is today -- exactly where it
    has been during the past 30 years...
    All of a sudden *everything* was becoming OO: from stupid spreadsheets
    to inventory management apps, from database engines to mice and games.

    One of the reasons that new languages fail to impress me is that they
    look like a pale and shoddy carbon copy of the revolutionary spirit of
    C++. It's always a sense of deja vu -- look at Java for instance. This
    language has absolutely nothing new to offer. Syntax-wise, you know
    exactly which language it tries to imitate. In terms of its object
    model, it's Smalltalk in disguise (in fact, Smalltalk is much better as
    n OO language because even primitive types such as int and float are
    first class classes, so to speak). Now look at C#. How impressive can a
    language that is a Java carbon copy be?
    BTW, when colleges switch to teaching Java because "it's easier to
    teach" I wonder where they have been in the past 30 years. For didactic
    purposes, Smalltalk is a far better option than any other OO language.

    Danny

  7. #22
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    >It was a feeling of sheer excitement and even a revolution. Until then,
    >object-oriented programming had been considered a theoretical academic
    >trifle that was considered unsuitable for anything serious. After all,
    >Smalltalk had been around since 1972. It was the language the defined
    >the term object-oriented and see where it is today -- exactly where it
    >has been during the past 30 years...


    Agreed.

    >All of a sudden *everything* was becoming OO: from stupid spreadsheets
    >to inventory management apps, from database engines to mice and games.
    >
    >One of the reasons that new languages fail to impress me is that they
    >look like a pale and shoddy carbon copy of the revolutionary spirit of
    >C++. It's always a sense of deja vu -- look at Java for instance. This
    >language has absolutely nothing new to offer. Syntax-wise, you know
    >exactly which language it tries to imitate. In terms of its object
    >model, it's Smalltalk in disguise (in fact, Smalltalk is much better as
    >n OO language because even primitive types such as int and float are
    >first class classes, so to speak). Now look at C#. How impressive can a
    >language that is a Java carbon copy be?


    Exactly. I hope I never said I didn't agree with u on this topic.

    >BTW, when colleges switch to teaching Java because "it's easier to
    >teach" I wonder where they have been in the past 30 years. For didactic
    >purposes, Smalltalk is a far better option than any other OO language.


    Exactly. The issue with languages like C# and Java that I have is that anyone
    can do it. There was a commentary in Visual Studio mag(don't remember which
    issue but I can get it) in which someone harped on MS about C# and why not
    just stay with VB and managed C++. The gentleman said, "Why are they doing
    this. VB made programmers out of all of us". Programmers yes, engineers
    no. I like to fancy myself an engineer and neither a programmer nor developer.


    And the books, don't get me started on the books. I remember books like
    Advanced C++ by James Coplien(and others). The resume of Jim was amazing.
    Look at a Java or mainstream (Wrox) C# books. These kids are just out of
    college. It's just not the same. Wow, 6 years and I talk like I'm Stroustroup
    or Meyers. Anyway, I still have to say "when in Rome". I love my job and
    it sure as **** beats working construction jobs for 15 bucks an hour or a
    mechanic.

    Thanks


  8. #23
    Remi Guest

    Re: C++ or C#

    It was a Java application, but when sockets were used they took a lot of
    time to connect to host network,
    and it was observed that c sockets was far more faster than sockets in Java
    (ofcourse java does everything using underlying c)

    "Ted" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:3d09ea01@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > "Remi" <ccpluspluses@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > >Hey its true that some of the applications need to be rewritten in
    > >++( some socket like stuff ) which i personally know!!!

    >
    > Why did it have to be re-written in C++? Other languages don't do

    sockets?
    > And is that an application or maybe some module?




  9. #24
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    Remi wrote:
    >
    > It was a Java application, but when sockets were used they took a lot of
    > time to connect to host network,
    > and it was observed that c sockets was far more faster than sockets in Java
    > (ofcourse java does everything using underlying c)


    That is the most common problem with Java apps that need to be rewritten
    in C/C++. On the drawing board, everything seems perfect. Even during
    compilation and testing the code seems fine. Problems start showing
    during production. The execution time of certain critical parts is too
    slow. In some cases, you can remedy that by replacing the "100% pure
    Java" code with "100% pure C" JNI calls. Alas, for some applications
    even this workaround is too slow due to the noticeable overhead of a JNI
    call made from a JVM. In such cases, the entire app needs to be
    rewritten in C/C++, unless of course you're willing to do what Java
    books often suggest: buy stronger hardware (preferably Sun's -- why else
    would they have invented that language?).

    Danny

  10. #25
    Avi Sherman Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    >
    >
    >Remi wrote:
    >>
    >> It was a Java application, but when sockets were used they took a lot

    of
    >> time to connect to host network,
    >> and it was observed that c sockets was far more faster than sockets in

    Java
    >> (ofcourse java does everything using underlying c)

    >
    >That is the most common problem with Java apps that need to be rewritten
    >in C/C++. On the drawing board, everything seems perfect. Even during
    >compilation and testing the code seems fine. Problems start showing
    >during production. The execution time of certain critical parts is too
    >slow. In some cases, you can remedy that by replacing the "100% pure
    >Java" code with "100% pure C" JNI calls. Alas, for some applications
    >even this workaround is too slow due to the noticeable overhead of a JNI
    >call made from a JVM. In such cases, the entire app needs to be
    >rewritten in C/C++, unless of course you're willing to do what Java
    >books often suggest: buy stronger hardware (preferably Sun's -- why else
    >would they have invented that language?).
    >
    >Danny

    Hi Danny,
    We had the same problem here, the company has chose Java as "official" language
    , and started write all API to access tuxedo services and other stuffs in
    java, but now they are having a lot of problems if it , including performance
    problem, they are thinking about a hardware upgrade.
    I think they won't rewrite the apis in c++ at all.
    Avi.


  11. #26
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    Avi Sherman wrote:
    >
    > Danny Kalev <dannykk@inter.net.il> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >Remi wrote:
    > >>
    > >> It was a Java application, but when sockets were used they took a lot

    > of
    > >> time to connect to host network,
    > >> and it was observed that c sockets was far more faster than sockets in

    > Java
    > >> (ofcourse java does everything using underlying c)

    > >
    > >That is the most common problem with Java apps that need to be rewritten
    > >in C/C++. On the drawing board, everything seems perfect. Even during
    > >compilation and testing the code seems fine. Problems start showing
    > >during production. The execution time of certain critical parts is too
    > >slow. In some cases, you can remedy that by replacing the "100% pure
    > >Java" code with "100% pure C" JNI calls. Alas, for some applications
    > >even this workaround is too slow due to the noticeable overhead of a JNI
    > >call made from a JVM. In such cases, the entire app needs to be
    > >rewritten in C/C++, unless of course you're willing to do what Java
    > >books often suggest: buy stronger hardware (preferably Sun's -- why else
    > >would they have invented that language?).
    > >
    > >Danny

    > Hi Danny,
    > We had the same problem here, the company has chose Java as "official" language
    > , and started write all API to access tuxedo services and other stuffs in
    > java, but now they are having a lot of problems if it , including performance
    > problem, they are thinking about a hardware upgrade.
    > I think they won't rewrite the apis in c++ at all.
    > Avi.


    Hi Avi,

    Well, this shows that at least in one way Java has succeeded: it has
    succeeded to force some users to buy stronger hardware. Now the question
    is whether the hardware is Sun's. If it isn't, Scott McNealy will be
    eating his hat:)

    Danny

  12. #27
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: C++ or C#

    You know, this might be the point where .NET and C# might overcome Java:
    Microsoft rules (or testers and I like to think so) when it comes to JIT.
    For years, the MS JVM worked better on Windows than the Sun JVM on it's own
    platform, whatever that is (I mean, SunOS and other Unix platforms)...
    Interesting thread, anyway ;-)
    Ovidiu.



  13. #28
    Mike Grim Guest

    Re: C++ or C#

    Stop trolling; obviously no one here cares to hear it.


    "Ted" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:3d08d8af$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > >I must say, I agree with Danny.

    >
    > I never said I didn't agree with Danny. The point is, there are other

    languages
    > out there. I used to have that "VB sucks" mentality but as I have been in
    > this business for some time I have seen that business needs mean more to
    > company than "real programmers and real languages". Show me the money!!
    >
    >
    > >I've been using C++ for over 7 years now
    > >and all I've been doing nothing but new development in C++. New

    development
    > >as in from scratch, like creating a multithread OO server for a client of
    > >mine. Of course it was written in C++ and only C++.

    >
    > Your point? Been doing threading on a daily basis for years. I don't get
    > it.
    >
    > >I just spent a year
    > >and a half converting a server side application that was written in Java
    > >to C++ with an OO design and that was written from scratch.

    >
    > This is not new. This is refactoring just in another language. Not my idea
    > of fun.
    >
    >
    > >I've seen development shops switch from one toy language to another

    trying
    > >to get the same Application to work properly. And yet, I never had a

    problem
    > >developing application with a real language like C++. Programming either
    > >being a GUI or server side applications.

    >
    > And Dodge built the Viper. It's new, cool and does the same thing as that
    > Pinto I drove in high school did. It does the same job, I just look

    cooler
    > in it and I get there faster. I know, it cost more, so what.
    >
    >
    > >"remember C++ will most likely end up like COBOL." I disagree with an

    attitude.
    > > he he he. If you look at the history of languages, COBOL died because

    > it
    > >could not evolve. This is why all of the toy languages are written with
    > >C++ not the other way around. So logically how can a language die if it
    > >supports all know languages that you play with?

    >
    > Again, I didn't say it died or will. And neither has COBOL. COBOL is alive
    > and well in the midwest USA. Unfortunately, it's all maintenance and

    those
    > in the know are doing that work. Others are fending for their lives

    worrying
    > about layoffs. As long as C++ is around to write languages like C# and

    VB,
    > hey I am happier for it. I know where my money will come from and what

    the
    > demand is.
    >
    > >How many other toy languages
    > >tried and failed flat on their face. Let me think, Delpi, Powerbuilder,
    > >Smalltalk, [insert toy language here]. Don't get me wrong toy languages
    > >aren't bad is that the right tool needs to be applied. This is way STL

    > has
    > >become a C++ standard.
    > >

    >
    > STL became a standard because of "toy languages"?




  14. #29
    Mike Grim Guest

    Re: C++ or C#



    "Ted" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:<3d090ae4$1@10.1.10.29>...
    >
    > >So your idea of fun is writing flashy apps that don't really cut it and
    > >that need to be rewritten in C++, as long as you write them in a cool
    > >language?

    >
    > Well, yeah. Sort of. I don't do the flashy thing though. Be honest how
    > many apps have you completely re-written? Or is it as I have done -- "Hey
    > we need this functionality and we think it can only be done in C++.


    Just so you know, several languages can do the same types of things. C++ is
    just used because of it's OO attributes and general performance.


    >Can you
    > do it?" If you have re-written I am curious as to what languages they

    were
    > written in at first. And as to why they were re-written.


    Okay, here at work we use Delphi, but I wrote an application in C++ to
    handle some things on testing platforms we had to clean out directories of
    certain files. It was just something I decided to do and it ran quick as
    ****, kthnxbi.



  15. #30
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ or C#


    >Just so you know, several languages can do the same types of things. C++

    is
    >just used because of it's OO attributes and general performance.
    >


    Hmmm. Ok. Is there a point here?

    >
    >>Can you
    >> do it?" If you have re-written I am curious as to what languages they

    >were
    >> written in at first. And as to why they were re-written.

    >
    >Okay, here at work we use Delphi, but I wrote an application in C++ to
    >handle some things on testing platforms we had to clean out directories

    of
    >certain files. It was just something I decided to do and it ran quick as
    >****, kthnxbi.


    Again, point? What does this have to do with re-writing apps. I have done
    the same thing but in PERL. So what?

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