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Thread: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?

  1. #31
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?



    Khaled wrote:
    >
    > "Sandeep Shilawat" <shily@rediffmail.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >Guys
    > >
    > >I generally restrain myself from arguments like JAVA or C++.
    > >I have been working on MS technologies and ow working on JAVA technologies
    > >( if one prefers to call it )
    > >
    > >For the record 76 % web development is still on JAVA ( regardless of the
    > >fact that it is obviously slower than C++ )
    > >
    > >However good the .NET becomes its not portable over the OS then what good
    > >is it for the people who believe in built once and use anywhere ?

    >
    > isn't .NET (theoretically, at least) apps portable on any OS having the .NET
    > Framework ?


    Theoretically, yes. In practice, you have to yank about %80 of the
    Windows environment, including dll's, GUI services, system APIs and so
    on in order to make it work. Put differently, you have to build en
    entire Windows emulator on top of your incumbent OS. This is hardly a
    new concept and experience has shown that it's a terrible idea.

    if not then why is a project like Mono
    > (www.go-mono.com) being developed ?


    Thousands of projects are in the process of development. The question is
    when -- if ever -- they end, and more importantly, what the result will
    be. There have been attempts to port ASP and VB to Linux, too, and to
    say the least, they haven't been dramatically successful.

    Danny

  2. #32
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?


    >Theoretically, yes. In practice, you have to yank about %80 of the
    >Windows environment, including dll's, GUI services, system APIs and so
    >on in order to make it work. Put differently, you have to build en
    >entire Windows emulator on top of your incumbent OS. This is hardly a
    >new concept and experience has shown that it's a terrible idea.


    Always a nay-sayer. It does work and if it is a well thought out process
    it works. There are tools out there that make it seamless to do. We have
    a completely MFC and ActiveX app that is running on Unix with no problems.
    And it didn't take very many takes to get it to work.


    >if not then why is a project like Mono
    >> (www.go-mono.com) being developed ?


    >Thousands of projects are in the process of development. The question is
    >when -- if ever -- they end, and more importantly, what the result will
    >be.


    The mono project is doing quite well. Short of lacking an IDE comparable
    to .NET(probably won't happen on Linux) it works extremely well. I am running
    the latest version on a Suse 6.4 box with good results.

    >There have been attempts to port ASP and VB to Linux, too, and to
    >say the least, they haven't been dramatically successful.


    One word - Chilisoft. Works and works well. For all of the failures there
    is always one to prove you wrong.

  3. #33
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?



    Ted wrote:
    >
    > >Theoretically, yes. In practice, you have to yank about %80 of the
    > >Windows environment, including dll's, GUI services, system APIs and so
    > >on in order to make it work. Put differently, you have to build en
    > >entire Windows emulator on top of your incumbent OS. This is hardly a
    > >new concept and experience has shown that it's a terrible idea.

    >
    > Always a nay-sayer. It does work and if it is a well thought out process
    > it works. There are tools out there that make it seamless to do. We have
    > a completely MFC and ActiveX app that is running on Unix with no problems.
    > And it didn't take very many takes to get it to work.


    A well thought process? Why not simply run it under an emulator?
    Besides, from the feedback (and complaints) I've been getting from this
    frontier, things are a tad less rosy than the impression you're trying
    to create. You probably would consider Mozilla a phenomenal success too,
    right?

    >
    > >if not then why is a project like Mono
    > >> (www.go-mono.com) being developed ?

    >
    > >Thousands of projects are in the process of development. The question is
    > >when -- if ever -- they end, and more importantly, what the result will
    > >be.

    >
    > The mono project is doing quite well. Short of lacking an IDE comparable
    > to .NET(probably won't happen on Linux) it works extremely well. I am running
    > the latest version on a Suse 6.4 box with good results.


    I don't know what good results exactly mean, but the question is whether
    you can take a Windows application as is and run it under Linux. Again,
    this isn't exactly a trivial issue as you're implying. Trust me, I'm
    speaking from experience.
    >
    > >There have been attempts to port ASP and VB to Linux, too, and to
    > >say the least, they haven't been dramatically successful.

    >
    > One word - Chilisoft. Works and works well. For all of the failures there
    > is always one to prove you wrong.


    That's exactly the point. You can always find a singular, exceptional
    case but for mainstream users, this is a terrible nuisance and in the
    majority of cases -- the projects are silently "discontinued". I wish
    the open source press would have the dignity and guts to spread less
    hype and tell the less pleasant stories too. Ogg Vorbis is the best
    things since sliced bread but they always forget to mention that it uses
    outdated technology and that it doesn't really perform well; Mozilla is
    the world's best browser except that it took seven years or so to finish
    (and we're talking about a Web browser, dammit! not a spaceship to Mars)
    and it crashes frequently etc. etc.
    Perhaps I'm always more critical than others because I'm tired of the
    hype and the lies that we've been fed for years. Think of the "write
    once run anywhere" bs. I don't know how many naive programmer still
    believe it (too many, I'm afraid) but even Sun doesn't believe in that.
    Look at Micro Java for cellular phones. I wouldn't expect it to support
    the monstrous and bloated APIs that J2EE has but the least one would
    expect is that the bytecode would be compatible. Well, it isn't. Not
    only can you compile ordinary Java code on this environment, you can't
    even run it because MIDlets and applets use a different bytecode
    specification! Honestly, I don't think that the bloat of .Net, with its
    managed environment and CLR would be much different in this regard. It's
    a framework tightly shoehorned for Windows; at best, it will somehow
    crawl on other platforms but in terms of performance and reliability --
    it won't be equal to native Windows apps running on Windows. At least in
    the next five or ten years.

    Danny

  4. #34
    Ted Guest

    Re: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?


    >A well thought process? Why not simply run it under an emulator?
    >Besides, from the feedback (and complaints) I've been getting from this
    >frontier, things are a tad less rosy than the impression you're trying
    >to create.


    Ok, well we did cheat. We use Mainsoft but for the cost and what we needed
    to support(for now) it works and it really wasn't that complicated to get
    working.

    >You probably would consider Mozilla a phenomenal success too,
    >right?


    I'm strictly MS. Sorry. I only have Linux at home just in case I somehow
    get forced to a unix shop. Unfortunately I am located in the Mid US and MS
    doesn't have the foothold here like on the US coasts.



    >I don't know what good results exactly mean, but the question is whether
    >you can take a Windows application as is and run it under Linux. Again,
    >this isn't exactly a trivial issue as you're implying. Trust me, I'm
    >speaking from experience.


    Good results to me means I have taken some code from windows to linux and
    it runs. I know they are at an infant stage but for the timeframe they have
    done quite well.

    >That's exactly the point. You can always find a singular, exceptional
    >case but for mainstream users, this is a terrible nuisance and in the
    >majority of cases -- the projects are silently "discontinued".


    Agreed, but there is always going to be a small percentage of projects that
    will work albeit not well. Chilisoft is an example. There have been many
    attempts at ASP on Unix and one can choose to go with "crap" or Chilisoft.
    Of all the comparable projects developed one will always be better than
    the others. It's the choice you make which one you choose. Those discontinued
    projects fail for many reasons and if they failed, great that's one less
    choice I have to offer up to management that could throw my career down the
    drain. I want those projects to fail. It makes my job just that much easier.

    >Perhaps I'm always more critical than others because I'm tired of the
    >hype and the lies that we've been fed for years. Think of the "write
    >once run anywhere" bs.


    One word: Sales and Marketing. OK 3 words. They have to sell. If they
    don't hype, those that aren't listening won't bite. I don't know the numbers
    but I would venture a guess that most of sales of tools like .nET come from
    hype and if it works MS is going to hype it.

    >Honestly, I don't think that the bloat of .Net, with its
    >managed environment and CLR would be much different in this regard. It's
    >a framework tightly shoehorned for Windows; at best, it will somehow
    >crawl on other platforms but in terms of performance and reliability --
    >it won't be equal to native Windows apps running on Windows. At least in
    >the next five or ten years.


    Yup. I think "bloat" is something that we are going to deal with from the
    day Java was released till eternity. The day that someone said "you forgot
    to delete your memory and I am not going to say it again" was the day the
    light bulb went on. I was devoted strictly to C++ and I loved the idea of
    new..delete, case sensitivity, semi-colons and all the other cheesy things
    people that wanted to degrade C++ for. But unfortunately those developers
    that forgot to delete their memory or did an assignment instead of equality
    and dropped the rocket from the sky won out. Platforms like .NET and J2EE
    are here to stay. I am kicking and scratching all the way but I can be someones
    ***** for a little while.



  5. #35
    Danny Kalev Guest

    Re: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?



    Ted wrote:
    >
    > Yup. I think "bloat" is something that we are going to deal with from the
    > day Java was released till eternity. The day that someone said "you forgot
    > to delete your memory and I am not going to say it again" was the day the
    > light bulb went on. I was devoted strictly to C++ and I loved the idea of
    > new..delete, case sensitivity, semi-colons and all the other cheesy things
    > people that wanted to degrade C++ for. But unfortunately those developers
    > that forgot to delete their memory or did an assignment instead of equality
    > and dropped the rocket from the sky won out. Platforms like .NET and J2EE
    > are here to stay. I am kicking and scratching all the way but I can be someones
    > ***** for a little while.


    You know, it's ironic that those very cheesy features such as case
    sensitivity, the = vs. == and so on are the ones that Java borrowed from
    C++:) Furthermore, even XML is case sensitive so I guess XML programmers
    will have to start moaning on this peculiarity, too (not to mention its
    wacky namespaces, and guess where did this feature come from...). As for
    the new and delete mess, I think that this is mostly anachronism
    nowadays. State of the art C++ applications nowadays rarely use bare
    pointers. They're always wrapped in a container class that automates
    memory management or by smart pointers. Besides, in most VC++ programs,
    programmers use dynamic allocation for no reason. In 80% or so of the
    cases, local automatic objects would do the trick. Faster, neater, and
    safer. So if new and delete are an incentive to switch to Java, I'd say:
    think twice. Not that there are no compelling reasons to switch to Java
    under some conditions, but garbage collection shouldn't be one of them.

    Danny
    >
    >


  6. #36
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: C++ .net Why has MFC not been replaced with .net libraries?

    Interesting figures... I don't mean that they aren't true, but do a Google
    search on the strings 'ASP', 'JSP' and 'PHP'. Each time, check out the
    number of results. Oh, and check out 'ASPX', too. I know that Google isn't
    a measuring tool, and that by searching these strings, you also hit the
    pages containing them, but the results are interesting anyway, imho.
    Ovidiu.
    "James Curran" <jamescurran@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3d3eaaeb$1@10.1.10.29...
    > "Sandeep Shilawat" <shily@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:3d3e2550$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >
    > > For the record 76 % web development is still on JAVA ( regardless of the
    > > fact that it is obviously slower than C++ )

    >
    > Where did you get this number from? It sounds ridiculous.
    >
    > First of all, we'd have to decided whether we are talking about

    client-side
    > or server-side coding.
    >
    > For client-side, I'd estimate that the real numbers are closer to:
    > HTML only 90.0%
    > Javascript 9.0%
    > Java 0.9%
    > Everything else0.1%
    >
    > For the server-side:
    > HTML-only 70%
    > Perl 15%
    > ASP 10%
    > Java 4%
    > Everything else 1%
    >
    >
    > --
    > Truth,
    > James Curran
    > www.NovelTheory.com (Personal)
    > www.NJTheater.com (Professional)
    > www.aurora-inc.com (Day job)
    >
    >
    >
    >




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